New Mavic Open Pro

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JohnW
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby JohnW » 12 Mar 2017, 10:04pm

Keezx wrote:H+ Son TB14 is a flat rim ("classic"look) with 17 mm inner width available in 36H.
Not super cheap, but reported as good quality.
Might be perfect for your purposes.


Reminds me of the Mavic G40 from days of yore. Worth a look. Any experience anyone?

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CREPELLO
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby CREPELLO » 12 Mar 2017, 10:26pm

Keezx wrote:H+ Son TB14 is a flat rim ("classic"look) with 17 mm inner width available in 36H.
Not super cheap, but reported as good quality.
Might be perfect for your purposes.
I was surprised to read this. I'd read about this rim before and thought it was part of the new 'wide profile' style of rims. The H+sons webpage shows an outside width of 23mm, but no internal width. http://hplusson.com/products
Either that means it could have a super thick brake track, a super big bead hook, or it is more like a 19mm internal width rim. :?

Keezx
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Keezx » 12 Mar 2017, 10:44pm

23 mm Outer width and 17 mm inner is quite "normal" for aluminium rims, 19C rims are usually 25 mm outer.
The weight of app. 500 gr. does indicate a beefy rim indeed, might take some abuse and still not terribly heavy.
For a lot of people 17 mm inner doesn't mean a thing but it brings some small but significant advantages especially for heavier riders who appreciate comfort combined with good handling at higher speeds.
AFAIK the TB14 is pretty much the only classic looking rim with 17 mm inner width.
If you don't care about a classic look , then DT Swiss R460 is IMO the better choice.

robc02
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby robc02 » 13 Mar 2017, 9:49am

......then DT Swiss R460 is IMO the better choice.


I'm tempted to try these. Do you use them yourself? Is it easy to fit and remove tyres?

PH
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby PH » 13 Mar 2017, 10:17am

I don't have an outright road bike, tried a couple and not for me. My lightest bike is a steel audax, on 28mm tyres, I've recently replaced the rear OP with an Exal LX17, I haven't noticed any difference. YMMV

Keezx
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Keezx » 13 Mar 2017, 10:37am

robc02 wrote:
......then DT Swiss R460 is IMO the better choice.


I'm tempted to try these. Do you use them yourself? Is it easy to fit and remove tyres?


Yes I do use them and fitting removing tyres is not problematic whatsoever.
I used Conti GP's and 4000S on them.

Keezx
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Keezx » 13 Mar 2017, 10:41am

PH wrote:I don't have an outright road bike, tried a couple and not for me. My lightest bike is a steel audax, on 28mm tyres, I've recently replaced the rear OP with an Exal LX17, I haven't noticed any difference. YMMV


17 mm internal for 28 mm tyres is still far from optimal, you'll have to consider 21C rims.
And if you don't care cornering at high speed with low pressure 28's then it's not that important.

PH
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby PH » 13 Mar 2017, 11:12am

Keezx wrote:
PH wrote:I don't have an outright road bike, tried a couple and not for me. My lightest bike is a steel audax, on 28mm tyres, I've recently replaced the rear OP with an Exal LX17, I haven't noticed any difference. YMMV


17 mm internal for 28 mm tyres is still far from optimal, you'll have to consider 21C rims.
And if you don't care cornering at high speed with low pressure 28's then it's not that important.


It's correct by Sheldon's chart. 17mm rim = 25 - 37 Tyre
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

I don't follow fashion :wink:

pliptrot
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby pliptrot » 13 Mar 2017, 11:22am

I have 2 bikes that take 23mm tyres as a maximum; one of these will take 25mm tyres in a squeeze. I have no idea what I will have to hunt down for these.....

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CREPELLO
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby CREPELLO » 13 Mar 2017, 12:00pm

Keezx wrote:23 mm Outer width and 17 mm inner is quite "normal" for aluminium rims, 19C rims are usually 25 mm outer.
The weight of app. 500 gr. does indicate a beefy rim indeed, might take some abuse and still not terribly heavy.
For a lot of people 17 mm inner doesn't mean a thing but it brings some small but significant advantages especially for heavier riders who appreciate comfort combined with good handling at higher speeds.
AFAIK the TB14 is pretty much the only classic looking rim with 17 mm inner width.
If you don't care about a classic look , then DT Swiss R460 is IMO the better choice.

My recollection would seem to be a bit faulty, perhaps partly based on the rim profile, which 'looks' shallow and wide.

Regarding comparable rims to the classic TB14 look, I've just found the Kinlin ADHN. http://hubjub.co.uk/kinlin-adhn-101-p.asp The Hubjub description says:
This is a medium width rim. The Taiwanese Kinlin is a shallow box section rim which my vernier caliper says is 23.5mm overall width. You got single eyelets. The finish is very good particularly the silver which has is very approperiate for retro builds. A great value substitute for the H Plus Son TB14, which we also do.

The real Kinlin edge is invisible but vital: the metallurgy. Know how people go on about the quality of things in the old days being superior to products available today? Thats often due to the quality of the metal. Kinlin uses T10 tempering on its aluminium: the most comprehensive of the internationally recognised heat treatment proceses. Result: stronger wheel, longer life particularly the braking surface. The inherent dimensional stability will also make your wheelbuilder happy.

Available in high polish silver or black. All versions have machined sidewalls.

The heat treatment sounds reassuring. Brucey, care to comment?

Anyway, I've been looking to build a pair of classic touring wheels on a budget. Having started with a pair of highly polished Shimano XT M730 hubs (solid axle, £65 NOS), I didn't really want to spend £100 on rims, so compromised with the Mavic Open Elite. Ok, it's got a more '90's look and isn't high polished, but it would be a satisfactory compromise. The narrow profile would also suit my Dalesman, which I'd equipped with modern studded V brake shoes on the old AT50 wide profile canti's - they needed narrower a width rim at front for clearance.

Now that's all about to change, as I have bought a pair of the Kinlin's at £25 each, which with 1st class P+P at £3.50, seems a bit of a bargain to me. Hoping that the heat treatment and the high polish is as good as it seems. So now I need to see whether the brake shoes will get clearance between the fork and rim. Otherwise I'll need to revert back to shorter brake shoes for clearance.

Anyway, the 32mm Pasela's will sit better on the Kinlin's than the other narrow profile rims previously used.

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CREPELLO
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby CREPELLO » 13 Mar 2017, 1:04pm

If anyone's interested, the braking surface of the Open Elite I've bought (and probably sending back to CRC) is around 1.5mm.

Brucey
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Brucey » 13 Mar 2017, 1:40pm

I thought we were discussing alternative rims in another thread?

Anyway T10 heat treatment is defined as

Cooled from an elevated temperature-shaping process, cold worked and artificially aged


which probably means that the rim profile is extruded straight, cold rolled to the curve required to make a given rim, then cut, jointed etc before being artificially aged.

'Artificial aging' is meant to be carried out in an oven at about 200C in many aluminium alloys, but some cheeky sods claim 'artificial aging' has been carried out in some materials even though the ageing temperature is actually room temperature in that grade.

So a claim of 'T10' condition may mean different things depending on the grade used. In most 6000 series alloys it would be a proper heat treatment, but not in some other grades. It does not automatically confer particular properties on the rim.

BTW a suspicion is that some rim manufacturers have changed their manufacturing methods, resulting in rims that look the same as they used to, but are mysteriously softer during building (which those who lean on the rim to stress relieve might notice) and don't last as long because the softer material wears faster.

Several wheelbuilders have described Mavic's current offerings as 'a bit soft' and one (poor sod) showed me a CXP Elite rim that he'd pretzled during rim-pushing stress relief. I don't do it that way, (and that is part of the reason why) but in all fairness it isn't a loading condition that is very much different to that seen in use when you sprint hard out of the saddle.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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CREPELLO
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby CREPELLO » 13 Mar 2017, 8:13pm

Brucey wrote:I thought we were discussing alternative rims in another thread?

oops! Yes I have definately confused the two threads.

<snip>
Anyhow, thanks for that very useful insight. Perhaps I might paste this bit on the other thread.

Samuel D
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Samuel D » 15 Mar 2017, 9:25am

Retail prices are reported here to be €70 for the normal and disc-brake versions but €170 for the Exalith model (not counting the necessary special brake pads).

I wonder who the Exalith model is aimed at? Is there much of a market for pricey rims that solve a wear problem that most people are solving with disc brakes instead? Also, online comments seem to suggest that many people think of the ‘Open Pro’ brand/product as dated. The new Open Pro is not deliberately aero, some rims are even wider than it nowadays, etc. May be a tough sell for Mavic.

Des49
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Re: New Mavic Open Pro

Postby Des49 » 15 Mar 2017, 10:29am

Samuel D wrote:Retail prices are reported here to be €70 for the normal and disc-brake versions but €170 for the Exalith model (not counting the necessary special brake pads).

I wonder who the Exalith model is aimed at? Is there much of a market for pricey rims that solve a wear problem that most people are solving with disc brakes instead? Also, online comments seem to suggest that many people think of the ‘Open Pro’ brand/product as dated. The new Open Pro is not deliberately aero, some rims are even wider than it nowadays, etc. May be a tough sell for Mavic.


That seems pricey for the Exalith treatment.

Unfortunately also confirms no 36 hole version, most of my hubs that need this rim are 36 hole. I am getting tired of wearing out Open Pro rims, my rear rim on my training bike is getting close to replacement at only 12 months old, kept very clean and not always used in poor weather. As Brucey states, the modern rims really are softer and wear more than they used to. So I would have been very interested in the Exalith version if in a 36 drilling. 36 hole rims seem to be getting much rarer across many manufacturers.

The MA40 was so much harder and took a lot of brake track wear. Still use a pair of Open 4CD rims too, these are on my racing bike when not using tubs, I suspect they have a lot of life left in them too. But the Open Pro is just plain soft.