Custom frame builder - who would you choose?

[pete75]

BTW there is a world of difference between knowing how to do something and developing the skill to do it well.

Exactly.
Unless you're one of the few people who are truly ambidextrous there is a simple way to demonstrate the difference. Just write a few sentences with the hand you normally use for writing and then a few with the hand you don't. Look at the difference . The knowing how to do it is identical for each but the skill of writing is much more highly developed for one than the other.

[PH]

Good fillet brazing is as much a skill as any type of welding and can produce excellent frames, I have several that I have ridden many thousands of miles, through many countries. I am also very fond of lugged and brazed frames, so I suppose that makes me "history".

OK, but putting aside the skill levels and asthetics, is there any practical reason to pay the considerable premium?
Reynolds make a thing about their tubes being designed to welding and the welding improving joint strength, is this just marketing?

The chemistry of air-hardening steels like our 853 and 631 means that not only are they stronger than typical chrome-alloy 4130 type steels, but after TIG o r MIG welding, the heat-affected zone (HAZ) will be significantly stronger due to the grain structure formed on cooling in air. The positive result from this is a higher fatigue life for the joint – usually 30-60% better than an equivalent Cr-Mo joint. So less material can be used to achieve a particular target fatigue performance.

[PhilD28]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with good welded lugless frame construction, it's lighter than either a fillet brazed or lugged and brazed frame and as long as it is correctly designed, specced and executed should give excellent life. My beef was with someone saying that it was the "only" modern way of joining frame tubes worthy of consideration - it isn't.

Not every builder has invested in TIG/MIG kit, nor do they want to when they have the equipment, knowledge and skills to make beautiful strong fillet brazed or lugged frames with just a gas brazing torch, the weight penalty on a touring bike is minimal.

I own frames built using all 3 methods and have used each for seriously tough touring trips all worked equally well and are still going strong. These frames were built by reputable builders (Dave Yates - lugged, Kevin Sayles - fillet brazed, Orbit - Tig welded). The Dave Yates hosteller is 20 years old and perfect.

My own experience with welding/brazing is industrial, I'm a Chartered engineer who served a formal apprenticeship.

[Bonefishblues]

Is fillet brazing strong enough? I'm assuming so, or the method would have been superseded long since. I've read many framebuilders' views and no-one has said it's anything other than a viable choice.

Why might a manufacturer favour tig? Because it's a cheaper technique which allows their product to sell at a more competitive price, maybe (or because they to make more money, perhaps?)

It's frustrating to see trenchant views expressed which seem to be opinion only.

I'm choosing not to have lugs. I'm agnostic as to which technique the builder uses to achieve that effect, probably leaning slightly towards brazing but I will make sure that they know what they are doing, as I would with any other skill I was buying!

Shall we move on?

[Gattonero]

I'm under some pressure to reduce the family bike count (7 between the 3 of us, which doesn't seem unreasonable, but hey-ho). Obviously the thing to do is to buy a new bike to replace perhaps a couple of others (the n-1 principle).

I've always hankered after something that was built for me, and have had impure thoughts about titanium, but it was only a dalliance, so it would be a steel frame.

I'll be wandering off to Bespoked in a few weeks to take a look at the latest and trendiest (based on reviewing the exhibitors) and sipping designer coffee, I don't doubt, which will be interesting, I'm sure.

My question is, if you were in my position, who would you be looking at as potential builders?

I would ask myself in the first place: "what is the bike supposed to do?"
My answer was, for now, a bike for proper commuting that would take full guards and bags; and a folding bike for the quick nip in town with the use of public transport.

For the first point, that I fancied a bike for my new commute to work (10 miles each way) and lightweight touring. Condor Cycles have done a very good job with a custom Fratello; they've also painted the (alluminium) mudguards to match, and made matching graphics inspired to the Tweed of the Carradice bags I am using.
And I also got annoyed to always carry a big lock (or two) plus the hassle of rain and what not, when after a working day was after meeting some friends around. A Brompton is solving this problem in a brilliant way! Just fold it and leave it at the reception, and if is raining or it's too cold or whatever other reason, just fold it and hop on a bus or tube. And it's made in the UK, FTW!

[Gattonero]

If I may; I would like to add my experience. Ensure that whoever fabricates the frame, uses standard sizing for obvious components like, seat tubes steer tubes, bottom brackets, etc. It can be a nightmare when you have to replace something and you cannot find the right measurement.

If you are building with steel, is is very unlikely to get a BB that is not BSa (or ITA) threaded unless you request so and/or is a "performance" race machine. Same for seat tube ID, only few people would use an odd size and for some particular reasons.
All of this, is part of the conversation that you have with the builder, being this the case of a touring/rando bike, I cannot see anyone blindly fitting a BB30 shell, for example

[Gattonero]

... sans lugs ...

Well that means fillet brazing or TIG welding. Fillet brazing being the most dreadfully awful way to join frame tubes which are these days mostly specced for welding.

That is a pretty bold statement.
First, you need to specify "which" tubing are you referring about, as there's only a few types within the know brands (Columbus, Dedacciai, Reynolds, Sanko, KVA, True Temper, etc.) that are recommended for "Tig welding only".
Second, a skilled hand is essential whether you are joining lugs, with Tig, or brazing. Each technique can achieve great results or horrible botched-up things. When the builder has skill, will choose the right tubing for your needs, see above.
Third, brazing and Tig do offer almost complete customization of the frame as far as angles and diameters to join, where the lugs off a limited amount of tweak per each type of them, and still fixed to a definite tube OD

[Bonefishblues]

Aw, now look what they're doing

https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/son ... e-and-fork

[Valbrona]

I remember Jason Rourke being one of the early TIG adopters; Paul Washington welded for Rourke before that. But there were a few others around the country. With Reynolds 853/631 came the shaped tubes - mega-tube, opposed oval, ovalized - and these tubes lend themselves to welding, and where you get an actual fusion of material.

For a time, tube manufacture leapt ahead of the framebuilding skill-base in the UK. If someone actually likes the look of lugs ... by all means. Some framebuilders seem to be very happy making frames in the same way that they were made ... oh, a couple of Centuries ago.

[reohn2]

Aw, now look what they're doing

https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/son ... e-and-fork

Silly steep seatube angles

[mig]

I remember Jason Rourke being one of the early TIG adopters; Paul Washington welded for Rourke before that. But there were a few others around the country. With Reynolds 853/631 came the shaped tubes - mega-tube, opposed oval, ovalized - and these tubes lend themselves to welding, and where you get an actual fusion of material.

For a time, tube manufacture leapt ahead of the framebuilding skill-base in the UK. If someone actually likes the look of lugs ... by all means. Some framebuilders seem to be very happy making frames in the same way that they were made ... oh, a couple of Centuries ago.

did paul washington make welded frames for rourke? i thought he was from the lugged frames era.

[Bonefishblues]

Aw, now look what they're doing

https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/son ... e-and-fork

Silly steep seatube angles

OTOH VERY short thighs...

[Samuel D]

Aw, now look what they're doing

https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/son ... e-and-fork

Silly steep seatube angles

Especially for a frame they repeatedly call “relaxed”. Does not compute.

[531colin]

Fashion.

[reohn2]

Aw, now look what they're doing

https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/son ... e-and-fork

Silly steep seatube angles

OTOH VERY short thighs...

Which will be OK for you,though the bike is being sold to a much wider customer base.
In your case the 'problem' of a slack 72 or even a 71deg STA can be overcome by an inline seatpost with the saddle set about mid rail,OTOH a steep 74deg STA(73deg in the XL) needs a laaaaayyyyyyback seatpost especially if a Brooks saddle or similar is used.
We come back,as ever,to the perennial problem........ .......fashion,a master that can't be satisfied.......