Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

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Brucey
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Brucey » 7 Jun 2020, 8:59pm

I think the bounce test is worthwhile, but for #25 to make a difference to the movement of #7 in third gear is a bit surprising to me; it would presumably require that it is a better fit on the axle than #4 is, and that it also restrains #4 too. If it does either of these things (leave alone both) I'm a bit surprised, but I suppose it is what it is....

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 6:00am

Good morning everyone and Brucey too of course!
Cuppa time again.

When in 3rd gear, No25 is hard up against No4 and holds it steady as without it, No4 is a rattling fit on the main shaft.
When No4 is held steady by No25, No7 is perhaps stabilised.

Holding the unit in my hand in 3rd gear, it feels "at one" with itself.
Holding with the pin in to keep it in 2nd gear, the whole thing feels rattly and loose.

------------------------------------------

I woke up with a jolly wheeze of an idea.

With Brucey's words going round my head about trying it without No25 and the associated bits, and trying it on a bump test or even a ride, I must say I was sorely tempted.

However, as the unit was fully assembled, I thought of trying something else first ................ and then I had a eureka moment.
Cut a thin bit of inner tube - I have a spare from Moulton - and fit it round the periphery of No7.

IMG_0242.jpg


I had difficulty getting it in as there's not much clearance. A thin sliver of grease sufficed and after a good firm push to get it past the threads in the shell, in it went. Instantly, it felt good.

Ball ring tightened firmly by hand, and the LH cone in too, and the bounce test was silent (other than the jiggle of the toggle and the bouncing noise of the tyre).

From what I feel having a spin of the wheel, the hub will work like that, but maybe won't last long in use as the rubber will wear away.

This is the way ahead I reckon.
Stop No7 tapping away on the hub shell.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 9:46am

In the interests of completeness ......... and as it's chucking it down out there so have nothing else to do .......... I removed No25 and the spring etc, so all that's in the hub is No4, No7, ball ring No11 and cassette carrier No13. Basically set into 3rd gear by default.

Screwed it in, fitted the LH cone, and gave it the rattle and drop test.

Rattled even worse than with all the bits in set at 2nd gear.

That settles it.
It's No7 tapping against the hub shell for definite.
Isolate it from the shell, and it's fine.

Two options as I see it.
Reduce the outside diameter of No7, or fit some sort of deadening device similar to the inner tube.

When I extracted the internals with the inner tube on, it had moved during insertion, saying therefore that it was too thick.
To that end, I tried three revolutions of PVC tape, but that still rattled a tad. I could try four, or even five, but would PVC tape work in the long term? Would it disintegrate and clog up the hub?

Advice on the way ahead would be good ........... or perhaps I just forget the whole thing and live with the embarrassing rattle. At least people would hear me coming. :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 10:26am

Brucey wrote:Also, I have mentioned this before but this SA hub is different from every other three speed in that the internal clearance is not adjustable in the usual way. Normally you do up the RH cone then back it off half a turn and this sets the internal clearance. In CS-RF3 this cannot be done. In the examples of this hub I have seen the 'set clearance' is kind of generous; this means that #7 is (particularly when unloaded) not well located and can move more than it should (IMHO) be able to. This may be adding to the rattle especially when #7 is unloaded (i.e. when freewheeling). However to reduce this clearance requires machining parts. I have done this on a trial basis (on a spare internal I have) but I have not run it to verify that it makes any difference or not.


THIS is the issue here.

Sitting here stewing over the whole saga.
Holding the unit in my hands by the ball ring uppermost so it's vertically orientated and pressing hard with my index finger onto the RH axle, and remember that the carrier is adjusted by dint of the RH cone being tight against the axle shoulder.
Cassette carrier and ball ring are nice and snug together.

However, No4 is loose up and down and so is No7.

If the shoulder on the axle for the RH cone wasn't there, the adjustment could be done to remove this clearance, then the unit inserted and the LH cone would adjust the whole thing.

Failing that, it needs some sort of stop on the axle to the left of the sun gear to take out most of the play ........ but there's nowhere to put it.

IMG_0243.jpg
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Brucey
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Brucey » 8 Jun 2020, 11:03am

Ok I think you have indeed settled it.

However curing it is another thing; I guess you could

a) machine #7 a bit
b) machine the hubshell a bit
c) fit a buffer between the parts
d) fit a damper to #7, which doesn't prevent the contact but does suppress the noise it makes
e) look to reduce the internal clearances in the hub.

On e) I have machined the RH cone and reduced the slop in this type of hub, but the slop that causes the rattle is radial and the slop reduction is lateral. It doesn't follow that reducing the lateral slop will definitely reduce the rattle.

Wrapping tape around #7 is an interesting experiment but it won't last; to implement c) I think the best method might be to machine a small groove in #7 and fit an oll-resistant O ring so that it sticks up above the surface by a fraction of a mm. Anything that is in the gap may result in drag if it touches when you don't want it to.

d) is much the least invasive approach; this would entail fitting a chunky O ring or two in the big groove in #7. However it is unlikely to be fully effective either.

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 12:35pm

Thanks Brucey.

Been painting the outside of the bungalow this morning.
Come in for lunch.
It was a bit damp earlier, but cleared up. Out again soon.

Before going out, I stripped everything off the axle and had a look at it, then put it all back (without 25 et al) and assessed the play in default 2nd gear.
I reckon - and it's difficult to measure it - that No4 and No7 have longitudinal play of about 1mm. 1mm is the max.
Pushing No4 to take out the play, all feels great, with no radial slop at all.

Looking at the bare axle, it could be that if the shoulder was moved inboard by as little as 0.5mm or even less the rattle would go.
All it needs is for some - or most - of the play to be eliminated.

You mentioned machining the cone. That would work too and could be easier to do, but there's not much waste you could trim ..... but it could be enough.

I wonder if a file would touch it?
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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 2:18pm

No, a file won't even mark it. Sort of expected that.

Next idea, and this seems to work.
Make a circular shim to fit between ball ring No11 and No7.
I made one from cardboard as a test. Used some cardboard from the cat food punches box. A tiny bit thicker than 1mm.
IMG_0244.jpg

Circular ring with a Stanley Knife and plopped it in and reassembled.
Instantly worked, but a tad too tight. Backing off the RH cone just a little bit allowed it to be free and rattle free.
Remember, the hub is clean and dry without a hint of lube, so it will be a little "mechanical".

Therefore, the idea is sound. Just need to find some metal just less than 1mm thick to cut out a ring in.
Beer can maybe, but they're thin alu so it may need two or three.

Sorry if I'm appearing obsessive about this .............. but I am obsessive by nature. :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

Brucey
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Brucey » 8 Jun 2020, 2:50pm

maybe a brass shim or a plastic shim would be better? Polypropylene for example?

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 3:31pm

My brain is searching for what I have available. This idea will sort it all out, I'm sure.

I have some thin stainless plate from a divider in a pressure cooker that we used to have. Might be the right gauge and the thing doesn't need to be circular - could be two semicircles which might be easier to make.
Could maybe find a plastic box of the right gauge, but that would have to be circular as it wouldn't be as tough and rigid as stainless. We used to buy Lidl washing tabs, and I kept a few of the used plastic boxes for odds and sods.

Couldn't carry on with the painting this afternoon as it bucketed it down, so I took the dog out ........ we came back soaked! :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby rjb » 8 Jun 2020, 3:40pm

How about a plastic milk bottle. I've cut shims from these before, using a compass cutter.
IMG_20200608_153727.jpg
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin, Raleigh 20, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Longstaff trike conversion on a Falcon corsa. :D

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fausto99
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby fausto99 » 8 Jun 2020, 4:46pm

Am really enjoying this thread. It's going to be incredibly useful as soon as I get my wheel built and running. Big thanks to MickF, Brucey and anyone else who has contributed.

I haven't noticed any rattling when I shook the hub on its own. I've just finished lacing the wheel and got it round-ish. I'll finish it when the mood takes me. The new carbon-fibre-ised F frame is nowhere near ready but I could try this new wheel in my old F frame to see what the noise is like. What cassette should I use to keep the Shimano 105 6 speed RD happy?

p.s. I found a new (to me anyway) of keeping the spokes crossed while I lace up. I try to do pairs as I like to minimise any spoke bending.
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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 5:19pm

fausto99 wrote:Am really enjoying this thread. It's going to be incredibly useful as soon as I get my wheel built and running. Big thanks to MickF, Brucey and anyone else who has contributed.

I haven't noticed any rattling when I shook the hub on its own.
I guess that there's a tolerance issue here. I'm willing to bet that some hubs are worse than others. Indeed mine seems to have run in over the last three years, and I've ended up with a distinct rattle only in 2nd.

So glad you're sorted with the 28h. :D

Any road up ............
I've spent an hour or three considering the clearance needed to be bridged.
The cardboard was unsuitable because it was cardboard, but at least it showed that it showed the idea worked.

Tried some plastic flexible cheap thin cutting-boards. We have three in different colours but haven't used them for years so they've been relegated to the shed for possible future use, so I cut a circle out ............. but at 0.82mm thick, it was too thick, but I could work out that the 1mm thread pitch needed a quarter turn to lock up.

Scratched my head and chatted to Mrs Mick F - always understanding and full of ideas - and she found a cat collar, the sort you put round the cat's neck after an operation. Exactly 0.5mm thick. We have two just sitting there and unrequired - the collars, not the cats - they're out somewhere!

I made a circle - scissors and Stanley Knife - and Bob's your uncle.
Perfect! :D

Back later maybe.
Tea's ready.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 8 Jun 2020, 6:58pm

The three shims.
Right to left.
Shims.jpg


Cardboard 1.5mm way too thick but a good prototype.
Plastic chopping board 0.81mm and a bit too thick.
Cat collar 0.5mm just about correct. Fingers crossed.

Sounds like the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears! :lol: :lol:

I finished off the cutout a bit better than the photo, and it seems perfect with regarding play and rattle.

Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, I'll get Moulton back together tomorrow (Tuesday) and fill the hub up with the Landrover grease, and ride the damned thing on Wednesday.
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fausto99
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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby fausto99 » 8 Jun 2020, 8:47pm

Fingers crossed. :D

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Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby ditty bopper » 8 Jun 2020, 9:53pm

Fascinating read. Been listening to my 2nd speed rattle for about five years and eventually accepted that Mick F had it right with "...it's a rattly thing". Looking forward to your resolution, Mick.