Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 18 Jun 2020, 11:09am

Just come back from the exact same ride as before when the grease escaped.

Perfectly clean rear wheel this time. :D
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 22 Jun 2020, 6:39pm

26miles today and a clean wheel throughout.
The noise is far quieter now, and hardly noticeable most of the time. It's only the roughest of surfaces that I can hear it.
Obviously radial rattling.

The 0.5mm plastic shim is obviously working, but a metal one - not alu - would be better.
We have a steel empty baked beans tin. I'm going to scissor a section out of the side and measure the thickness ............ but tomorrow after washing it out.
Mick F. Cornwall

jimlews
Posts: 591
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby jimlews » 22 Jun 2020, 9:07pm

Mick, with all your trials and tribulations with that hub, would you still recommend it.
Tentatively thinking of getting one myself, but for a 27" wheel. However, I don't want unnecessisary hassle.

User avatar
fausto99
Posts: 639
Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 10:06am

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby fausto99 » 22 Jun 2020, 9:49pm

Mick F wrote:26miles today and a clean wheel throughout.
The noise is far quieter now, and hardly noticeable most of the time. It's only the roughest of surfaces that I can hear it.
Obviously radial rattling.

The 0.5mm plastic shim is obviously working, but a metal one - not alu - would be better..

Probably a stupid question but I’m going to ask it any way. If the play and rattle is radial, can you not put a shim in a place that reduces the radial play.

Also a plastic washer/ shim will be quieter than metal any day.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 23 Jun 2020, 9:04am

jimlews wrote:Mick, with all your trials and tribulations with that hub, would you still recommend it.
Tentatively thinking of getting one myself, but for a 27" wheel. However, I don't want unnecessisary hassle.
Yes, I would recommend it, and I don't know why more bikes don't have them.

For most people, it would take the place of a triple chainset.
I have no doubt that on a 27"/700c wheel, it would far quieter than on a "bouncy" Moulton.

I also think there is a tolerance issue going on here.
I get the impression that I'm the only one complaining about the rattle, but with the 0.5mm shim I have no complaints at all.


fausto99 wrote:Probably a stupid question but I’m going to ask it any way. If the play and rattle is radial, can you not put a shim in a place that reduces the radial play.

Also a plastic washer/ shim will be quieter than metal any day.
There seems to be two "plays at play" here.
One is axial ............. where the parts inside have a play that the hub can't take out because there's no internal adjustment available.
The other is radial, in that there's very little clearance inside the shell, so any looseness in the parts inside, with knock on the inside of the shell. If the shell was a tiny bit bigger diameter internally, the radial issue wouldn't be a problem.

By shimming out the internals, it's stopped some of the radial rattles as well as the axial ones as it's given a rudimentary adjustment and firmed it all up.

The SA hubs in the past, had an adjustment on the RH end. The RH cone could screw in and be locked off with a locknut. This hub has no such RH adjustment, as the cone goes hard up against a shoulder on the axle. The RH end adjustment takes out the internal play, but this hub cannot because there's no adjustment at all.

The hubs in the past, and this one too, have an adjustment and locknut on the LH end, but they only adjust the wheel-play.

As for the plastic shim, I suspect you are correct. How it will wear over the miles, I don't know.

The bean tin base was 0.24mm so I'd need two ........ not a good idea. The sides were ribbed so no use.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
fausto99
Posts: 639
Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 10:06am

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby fausto99 » 24 Jun 2020, 5:53pm

Mick F wrote:... If the shell was a tiny bit bigger diameter internally, the radial issue wouldn't be a problem.

so, why can't you wrap a thin plastic sheet around the inside of the shell - say a spare cistern syphon diaphragm. That would be stiff enough to stay sprung out towards the shell and tough enough to withstand metal bits sliding over it.
Mick F wrote:The SA hubs in the past, had an adjustment on the RH end. ... have an adjustment and locknut on the LH end, but they only adjust the wheel-play.

Still not sure why this affects radial clearance, rattle, etc. Does it not just affect things axially?

Mick F wrote:As for the plastic shim, I suspect you are correct. ...

The polyolefins, polypropylene and polyethylene (the greasy feeling plastics) are very tough. That's why they're used for crates and the like. Their surface is also very slippery.

Brucey
Posts: 41500
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Brucey » 24 Jun 2020, 7:50pm

fausto99 wrote:
Mick F wrote:The SA hubs in the past, had an adjustment on the RH end. ... have an adjustment and locknut on the LH end, but they only adjust the wheel-play.

Still not sure why this affects radial clearance, rattle, etc. Does it not just affect things axially?


it may affect the way the ring gear is able to move if tilting is part of the motion that causes the noise. The other thing is that the ring gear may be ringing like a bell; it will only be able to resonate freely if it is not in contact with anything else for a fraction of a second. Simply being in contact with something else (eg the plastic washer) more of the time may suppress the noise to some extent, even if it doesn't entirely suppress the contact between the parts. Contact and noise are not quite the same thing, even if one the first can cause the second.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 25 Jun 2020, 10:11am

fausto99 wrote:so, why can't you wrap a thin plastic sheet around the inside of the shell - say a spare cistern syphon diaphragm. That would be stiff enough to stay sprung out towards the shell and tough enough to withstand metal bits sliding over it.
The problem (I think) is that there's little clearance.

Any sound deadening would have to be sound absorbent and the clearance available wouldn't give enough room.
I could try a sheet of the same cat collar inside, because if that plastic bridges the whole gap, it can't rattle radially. Whether it will make the hub drag, I don't know.

Busy today, and maybe tomorrow too, but I sort of intend to pull the hub apart (again!) and measure up and do a bench-experiment.

This the cat collar, and Percy the cat asleep on the kitchen table! :D
IMG_0555.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 10:55am

Hub internals out this morning, and I got to measuring with my Lidl's digital callipers.
Hub shell internal is 53.81mm
Hub mechanism (not the ball ring) is 52.86mm

Can't be sure that the shell measurement is spot on, as it seems difficult to measure such a wide radius ....... for me at least.

This means that there's about 0.5mm clearance ................... and just so happens that the cat collar is 0.5mm thick.
I cut out a strip 25mm wide and guessed on the length, and fitted it inside. It overlapped a bit, so trimmed a bit off the length and with trial and error, got it snug inside.

The internals went in, but the ball ring wouldn't screw all the way in, so out came the plastic again and I trimmed some off the width, and hey presto, it's in and adjusted and seems completely rattle free with a bounce test on solid concrete.

I didn't pull the internals apart to check on the circular shim (for the axial play) as it all felt good and smooth.

The hub rotates fine, so at my next opportunity, I'll be off on a (hopefully silent) test ride.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 11:22am

................. and with the bike on the stand and whizzing the wheel round, it sounds perfect! :D
Mick F. Cornwall

jimlews
Posts: 591
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby jimlews » 27 Jun 2020, 11:30am

I hope you have Percy's consent for this.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 11:46am

:lol:
He is a lovely young cat and he had a habit of playing with his "magic wand" of a tail.
Like a puppy chasing his tail! :lol:

Trouble is, sometimes he bites it, and it gets sore and sometime bleeds. We took him to the vets once because of it, and they gave us the two collars plus some ointment and some antibiotics for him.

Seems to have grown out of it now, so the collars aren't needed now.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
fausto99
Posts: 639
Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 10:06am

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby fausto99 » 27 Jun 2020, 1:45pm

Mick F wrote:................. and with the bike on the stand and whizzing the wheel round, it sounds perfect! :D

Hurrah!! :D

jimlews
Posts: 591
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby jimlews » 27 Jun 2020, 2:01pm

Mick F wrote::lol:
He is a lovely young cat and he had a habit of playing with his "magic wand" of a tail.
Like a puppy chasing his tail! :lol:

Trouble is, sometimes he bites it, and it gets sore and sometime bleeds. We took him to the vets once because of it, and they gave us the two collars plus some ointment and some antibiotics for him.

Seems to have grown out of it now, so the collars aren't needed now.


Percy is indeed a handsome fellow.

But remember, whilst 'dogs have owners, cats have staff'.

Good to know that you've mastered the 3sp.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50355
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 5:11pm

Mick F wrote:................. and with the bike on the stand and whizzing the wheel round, it sounds perfect! :D

fausto99 wrote:Hurrah!! :D

jimlews wrote:Good to know that you've mastered the 3sp.

The proof of the pudding is a test ride.

The further proof of the bigger pudding, is that the 0.5mm plastic will last long, rather than wearing away. It is hard though, and needs a sharp Stanley Knife to cut through.

Two bits in there now. One, a ring between No11 and No7, and another covering the inside of the hub shell No3.
Parts Diagram.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall