Noisy Sturmey Archer 3sp

[Brucey]

the LH bearing reacts the force of the RH bearing, just like any other hub. You should set the hub's internal clearance on the RH side (with the LH cone loose), then adjust the LH cone.

If you adjusted the RH after the LH cone, the hub is probably now set wrongly.

Follow the instructions, either from SA or as above.

cheers

[Mick F]

Good morning Brucey.

These are the facts of the case:

I undid the LH bearing and took it right off and looked inside.
I then screwed it back in loosely backed off maybe as much as a quarter of an inch, perhaps less, but very loose,
I inverted the wheel and took off the RH outer locknut with my 14mm cone spanner.
I then tried to undo the RH cone with the 12mm flats.
I was jammed solid on the axle, and I needed some pipe to extend the spanner.
With a great pull on the spanner and extension, it shifted.

It was probably the tightest 12mm nut that I have ever undone.

I do not understand.

Perhaps the RH cone is designed to bottom out tight?
You said before, that the RH side needs locking with a tab washer, so maybe the design has changed?
As I say, the above are the facts, and other than the idea that it designed to be that tight, I ain't got a clue.

The design has changed a tiny bit of course, as the outer locknuts #17 and #30 are identical on mine.

I plan on a ride with it this morning, but this afternoon may see me having another strip-down of the bearings to have another look.

Meanwhile, I've adjusted the hub on reassembly in accordance with your instructions.

[Brucey]

thanks for the extra information Mick; from your description before I thought the cone and locknut were tight on the RHS, but was it just the cone tight on the axle, rather than the cone and locknut tight against one another? If so, yes, maybe the cone is up against a shoulder like you say (BTW that would be normal in a SRAM hub).

If you screw the RH cone all the way in (with the left side loose) and the gear mechanism inside still works OK (isn't binding) then there must be a shoulder on the axle like you say. If so it may be that the RH cone is meant to be hard up against the shoulder. Indeed it is quite possible that precession forces the cone against the shoulder in use, and maybe it went up another 1/4 turn and this is how the hub went tight on you...?

NB I think the precession forces will be considerably greater than normal with this hub, because input gears are low and therefore chain tensions and precession forces will be increased.

cheers

[Mick F]

Back from a VERY chilly 20mile ride.
Frost first thing here and the gritters were out last night. Very unusual for late March round here.

The hub performed well, perhaps a little bit quieter.

Yes, as you say, it was the RH cone alone that was solid tight.
I seem to remember my old Campag Record hubs - perhaps the rear one only - had a shoulder for the cone to screw onto. If it was only the rear, it would have been on the RH freewheel side. That way, you could adjust the bearings from the left because you wouldn't be able to get to the right due to the freewheel block.

Maybe, SA do this too?

After lunch, I'll take the wheel off and get spannering again, and take notice - and maybe a photo or two. I'd love to find a shoulder in there or at least something that the cone abuts to. If there's nothing there, I'll be completely mystified.

The exploded diagram of the hub isn't clear about showing a shoulder, but as it says that the outer locknuts #17 and #30 are different, it could be that the axle is different too.

[[XAP]Bob]

Another user of the hub - late to the thread though...

Mine does give the reassuring SA ticking when pawls are being overrun.
I need to take mine apart and have a good clean and service (toggle chain is a bit fiddly with thick dropouts).

[Mick F]

Mine does give the reassuring SA ticking when pawls are being overrun.

Mine doesn't.
I get the freewheel clicking a certain speeds freewheeling - and even that is quiet - but that's all.

Well, I spent a happy hour after lunch having a good look-see.

I loosened off the LH side first, then inverted the wheel and removed the RH locknut 14mm cone spanner, then the RH cone 12mm spanner. I took them right off, removed the cassette holder, and wiped clean the protruding axle.
You can see clearly, that there's a shoulder.

Looking in at the cassette holder, you can see roller bearings, and it's these bearings that go on the shiny bit of the protruding axle seen on the previous photo. You can see where the roller bearings have run.

I replaced the cassette holder and confirmed that when the RH cone is hard up against the shoulder, it is the correct position for it. No doubt it has to be tight, but not super-human tight like what it was.

You can see the top of the shoulder in this photo.

I screwed on the RH cone, tightened it with 12mm spanner, and then the locknut with 14mm cone spanner.

Re-inverting the wheel, I screwed the LH cone, locknut and outer locknut gently tight, and the cassette holder would still turn.
Using my wheelstand, I mounted the wheel and adjusted the LH cone and nuts so there was the tiniest bit a play on the wheel. It span freely and the cassette holder turned ok .............. but not nicely. It was just the same "feel" as before.

I then loosened off the LH cone a bit, so there was excess play, but still the cassette holder felt "not right".
I took it all apart again, and had a good look.
There's nothing wrong at all that I can see. I think it needs running in. The cassette holder is fine, but "draggy" IMHO.

Maybe the familiar SA clicks will appear in time, or maybe it's because it's in a 406 wheel that makes the difference. The wheel spins nearly twice as fast as a "normal" wheel.

Hopefully, that info is interesting - it certainly was for me! - and if anyone wants me to investigate further, please feel free to ask.

[Brucey]

in this picture


there is a regular series of marks in the ball-ring race. I'm hoping that those marks are just in the grease, and not indents in the ballrace...?

cheers

[Mick F]

Well spotted!
Yes, just greasy marks where the balls were as I lifted it out.
The grease is very soft and sort of oily rather than sticky.

The wheel is still in the stand on the kitchen table, and I've just been in having a spin.
When I spin the wheel forwards, the cassette carrier goes with it ............ in 3rd of course.
I can hear the clicking as the pawls override.

Maybe on the bike, considering suspension, I can't hear it?

[[XAP]Bob]

Possible, my head is closer to mine than yours is to yours

[Mick F]

Possible, my head is closer to mine than yours is to yours

I have no doubt!

Moulton is back in one piece again, though not riding today ............ other things to do.
It's on the work stand and I've set up the LH cone again and again and again in an effort to get the quietest freewheeling and back-pedalling. I can't change anything, other than making the bearing too tight or too loose. The noises are the same.

In third and smallest cog (11t), I can crank the thing up to maybe 50mph! Out on the road, I can still pedal at 40mph down hill, as the top gear is 135".

At full crack on the stand, the wheel whizzes round quite fast. A bit of maths @ 50mph gives around 1000rpm.
That's a wheel/tyre with a tad over 18" diameter.

As the wheel slows whilst freewheeling, theres a knocking noise appearing at wheel rate, then as it slows more, that goes, to be replaced with the freewheel clicking, then the knocking reappears, then lastly, the freewheel clicking.
I'm wondering if there's a harmonic issue, or something going on in there, whilst the hub is "relaxed" and rotating at different rates?
I've tried adjusting the toggle chain, and it has no effect within the boundaries of normal adjustment.

2nd gear and 1st gear is only the freewheel clicking.

Back-pedalling in 1st and 2nd produces only freewheel clicks, but 3rd produces a sort of knocking/catching noise as well as the freewheel clicks.

Perhaps all this will wear in.
It has no physical symptoms - only noise, and it's not loud enough to be worrying.

I'll pick up some gear oil in the next few days and inject some in an effort to shut it up!

[[XAP]Bob]

11t +33% is virtual 8tooth? (ish?)

As for different clicking schemes - I'm not that surprised - there are a number of things that can freewheel...

[Mick F]

11t +33% is virtual 8tooth? (ish?)

I have a 61t 11t top gear = 134"

For a 700c wheel/tyre at 26.5" diameter with a normal(?) 52t chainwheel, would need a 10t cog to get 134"
My 18.3" wheel/tyre and my 61t chainwheel would indeed need an 8t cog.

The reason I went for a SA hub, was to get higher gears. With a Moulton, they achieve higher gears by using 9t or 10t cassettes.
This is a very expensive way to do it. The smaller cogs wear out quickly, and you can't find individual cogs that small, so will need an expensive full cassette. On top of that, you need an expensive special hub or maybe only a special cassette carrier.

A Sturmey Archer cassette hub costs £100, and you can fit cheap normal cassettes onto it for the rest of its life.

I actually don't need a 61t chainwheel or even a triple chainset. In the fulness of time, I'll be fitting a double chainset. Maybe 52/38. For the time being, I'm having fun fun fun!

As for different clicking schemes - I'm not that surprised - there are a number of things that can freewheel...

Yes, the hub is relaxed in the freewheeling in 3rd, so the different elements within are idling away at different times and revs.

.............. or that's the way I see it.

[[XAP]Bob]

Exactly why I got mine - 20" wheels on the trike, I wanted to keep high gears, but the Capreo cassettes were pretty expensive.
The SA cost as much as 2 cassettes, but I think that it, and it's associated cassettes (which are virtually free) have already paid back...

[Mick F]

I cannot understand why people don't have these hubs on smaller wheel bikes as standard.
Yes, there's a weight penalty, but that's all. Everything else is win win win.

I suppose it's possible to have one and combine it with a single chainwheel instead of a triple.

[[XAP]Bob]

That's their 'normal' sales pitch...