Bullbars.....(Show us yours?)

[531colin]

I think I have worked out why the bullbars work for me.



Thats a fairly well-used glove, and you can see where the heel of my hand rested on the drop bar "ramps"....the bit immediately behind the hoods.
The base of the thumb is just about unmarked.
Turns out my hands rest on the bullbars in the same way.
If i hold the grips on flat bars it sort of wedges my arthritic thumbs away from the rest of my hand, which isn't pleasant. (Its OK just resting my hands on them, except I can't brake......)

[RickH]

One thing I found with flared drops (although I didn't like the position on the drops & swapped them for more normal ones)

was that they tended to make me rest my palm on the hoods rather than hanging by my thumbs, probably by encouraging a slight tilt of the wrists. That may be an alternative solution for those who, like me, prefer to ride on the hoods most of the time.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
I think we all know as 531colin has suggested that formulas mean nothing, you only need to write down your measurements for yourself, meaningless for another person, but interesting to discuss.

Lemonds formula is flawed as it does not take into account the crank length.
I just record pedal flat to the seat top centre as pedals shoes and even same model saddles can come out different.

Setting cleat back will mean shorter effective legs.

I believe that most cyclist would benefit from stretching their calfs and hams regularly, this unlocks that extra motion length.

And of course you should set saddle height by feel, sore hot quads just above the knee a short way down your course, is either saddle too low or cleats set to far forward/ both. Legs will tire quickly.
High saddle height is more difficult to notice, but if you drop your heels a bit in a high gear and you get pulling of hams you are on your way there.
If your mates say you rock your hips the that's a clue.

These feelings are subtle though and you have to be some what flexible and fit to feel them, that's probably why so many have problems and have to seek advice from bike fitters.

As said slightly low better than slightly high, when you find your sweet spot and moving back on saddle has no gain in a high gear, then drop the saddle about 3mm for training purpose's, builds stronger legs

[breakwellmz]

I don't have a problem with "bike-fitting" as a concept.....but I take it to mean making the bike fit the rider, by observing the rider on the bike.
The trouble with all these "body measurement times a magic number" approaches is that what you are trying to do is to fit the rider into some sort of pre-concieved notion of how somebody thinks they should ride the bike.
Take this "inseam times 0.88". My inseam is 84.5, times the magic number 0.88 is 74.36 cm.......so my saddle should go up by 4cm. just to comply with a number that is (apparently) "some sort of rule of thumb". Not exactly a sweeping endorsement, is it?

Well, in a moment of weakness i put my saddle up 4cm.
I'm so glad I did......its the biggest laugh I've had for days.....I never got past the end of the road....no surprise, really, as i couldn't get the pedals all the way round.....its like being 8 years old again, trying to ride my big brother's bike.
You are having a laugh, aren't you? I do hope so, because i still am!

This may seem a silly question but is foot size (length) a consideration, or too small a variation to worry about?

[531colin]

I set saddle height by feel.
I don't want to be rocking my hips, or pointing my toes stretching to reach the bottom pedal, so I set it low enough so I have a comfortable bend in my knee and I can pedal smoothly "through the bottom" on my worst day, when I'm tired and my legs are stiff.
When I'm looking for "maximum power for minimum muscle work" I find i am dropping my heels and sitting on the back of the saddle. ....this is a few percent of the ride...when I'm "working the bars and forcing the gear" because I can't be bothered to change down for a minute.
So to check saddle height, sliding back in the saddle should give more knee extension, and a little boost in power. If sliding back doesn't give you a boost, the saddle is already too high....lower it 5mm and try again. If you sit right on the back of the saddle and you are still pedalling smoothly, put it up 5mm and try again.

[Gattonero]

...
Well, in a moment of weakness i put my saddle up 4cm.
I'm so glad I did......its the biggest laugh I've had for days.....I never got past the end of the road....no surprise, really, as i couldn't get the pedals all the way round.....its like being 8 years old again, trying to ride my big brother's bike.
You are having a laugh, aren't you? I do hope so, because i still am!

So with an inseam of 82cm you cannot get to the pedals if the saddle is set at 75cm?
What crank length do you have, and are you sure you are not dropping the heel? It sounds to me like you are, and I may be dropping the toe, that would explain such big difference ins saddle height between two people with the same inseam.

[Samuel D]

The toe-versus-heel dropping differences would have to be large to explain the differences between the four of us.

531colin:
inseam 84.5 cm
saddle 70 cm
170 mm cranks

Gattonero:
inseam 82.5 cm
saddle 74–74.5 cm
(unknown cranks)

NATURAL ANKLING:
inseam 84 cm
saddle 76 cm
170 mm cranks

Me:
inseam 87 cm
saddle 73 cm
172.5 mm cranks

531colin uses SPD shoes, which may have a lower stack height than road pedals.

Gattonero: did you actually measure your inseam? You ‘sat’ on a hardback book pushed gently into your crotch and square against a wall, while wearing only underwear, feet about pedal-width apart?

My guess is that toe-versus-heel dropping is at least as much a response to saddle height as it is a natural pedalling style. That is, if you raise the saddle, you’re going to point your toes whether you like it or not. And vice versa to a lesser extent (lesser because pedalling with excessive knee-bend is possible).

Whether it feels normal will depend on how long you’ve ridden like that. I’m not sure feeling normal is a good guide here. Merckx used to fiddle endlessly with his saddle height as if tiny differences mattered. I suspect they only mattered in his head.

Pointing the toes must require less force from the calf muscles, thereby saving some energy. That and the aerodynamics argument are probably why some pros point their toes. But there are counter-examples: Froome, Wiggins, and Merckx rode with low saddles and relatively low heels. Anquetil, on the other hand, rode with an extreme toe-pointing style.

[deliquium]

Interesting comparison of measurements ^

ME:

Inseam (as per method described by Samuel D) = 845

Saddle height (where the centreline of the seat tube bisects the saddle) = 740

170 cranks

SPD shoes (recessed cleat types)

[reohn2]

Are we forgetting forward/aft saddle position?

[Samuel D]

So deliquium has the same inseam as 531colin, same pedal system, and same crank length – but the saddle 4 cm higher.

As much as I respect 531colin’s fitting knowledge (his advice got me properly comfortable on the bicycle), he hasn’t yet convinced me that moderate toe-pointing does much harm.

Mind you, nor do I believe pointing your toes does any good for most cyclists. But maybe small variations in foot angle are fairly harmless?

By the way, 4 cm sounds a lot in saddle height, but if you sit cross-legged in a chair and rotate your ankle, you can generate 4 cm of movement at the ball of your raised foot without vast movement. Women sometimes wear 10 cm high heels and sometimes flats … albeit not on a bicycle.

[Bmblbzzz]

https://www.visualnews.com/2013/10/10/b ... ing-shoes/

I've also seen women cycling in non-cleated high heels on various occasions.

[Bmblbzzz]

One thing I found with flared drops (although I didn't like the position on the drops & swapped them for more normal ones)

kona bars.JPG
was that they tended to make me rest my palm on the hoods rather than hanging by my thumbs, probably by encouraging a slight tilt of the wrists. That may be an alternative solution for those who, like me, prefer to ride on the hoods most of the time.

I have one bike with similar flared bars and one with more normal drops and have noticed something similar, though I couldn't rule out the different hoods themselves being an additional factor. I've never used bullhorns so can't comment directly on that, sorry.

[Gattonero]

This has become a big thread drift, but yes, sounds odd but I've measured up my inseam right with the help of a book.
That single-speed bike there does use 170mm cranks, all my other bikes do use 172.5; for that bike I would use Shimano DX shoes (not thin soles)

[Samuel D]

Here’s a thought: the book method may not replicate the scenario of sitting on a saddle (wider than any book) and crouching as one does on a bicycle (rather than standing upright). Or, to be more precise, it replicates that with varying accuracy for different riders.

So maybe Gattonero, NATURAL ANKLING, and deliquium have a greater effective leg reach on the bicycle than their inseams suggest, and maybe Colin and I have lower effective reach than our inseams suggest – before we even get to foot angle. Something to do with sit-bone shape?

I am certain any formula for saddle height can only get in the right range rather than guarantee the right height. There’s so much biological variation at work.

[531colin]

Have a look here...http://anatomyzone.com/3d_atlas/musculoskeletal/pelvis/pelvic-bone/
The book up your crotch will be against your Pubic Symphysis, not against your Ischial tuberosity.