Chris Juden's talk at the 2017 York Rally

[Freddie]

Should be a welcome breath of fresh air, no doubt of that. The domination of cycle sport, however, is not confined to all matters technical but extends to every aspect of modern cycling from the choice of machine and its components to the clothes the rider wears.

Not really a surprise though, is it? These guys have to have the latest frame, latest wheels, latest groupset, latest team colours. They are the ones keeping the cycling industry afloat, not CTC members with 30 year old frames and often only slightly more youthful components.

This is not to say there isn't a place for more sensible equipment, but that is not going to be where the money will be made, so it is usually a labour of love on the part of smaller manufacturers. Shimano's equipment became favoured over Campagnolo by way of mountain biking and the huge turnover of that industry, the benefits of which spilled over into touring. I somewhat doubt that Shimano set out to woo that most resistant and curmudgeonly (dare I say, tightfisted?) member of the cycling fraternity, the tourist. They couldn't care less.

[Brucey]

I occasionally heave a sigh of relief that 'touring bikes' and 'touring' are not more popular than they are;

- no-one cares what my (grotty) touring bike looks like or has preconceived notions about it
- no one wants to steal it
- I can use any parts on it that take my fancy
- there is next-to-nothing by way of one-upmanship in the world of touring bikes
- no-one cares what I wear or how fast I'm going when I'm riding my touring bike
- I can ride further, in more comfort and at reasonable speed (with/without a load) over a wider range of surfaces and gradients on my touring bike than almost any other kind of bike
- I can spend as much or as little as I want to on a capable touring bike
- evolution not revolution means that there is a lot of backwards compatibility in the world of touring bikes

I think this is in start contrast to almost any other subset of the cycling world. If the world of touring bikes became subject to the commercialism of MTBs, racing bikes etc we would be much the poorer for it....

cheers

[Sweep]

Great posts freddie and brucey.

And an excellent point freddie about tourists, particularly fkat-bar ones,hunting for bits from the mtb ranges with those wonderful low gears.

[ebor62]

Looking forward once again to the Rally and Chris Juden's talk. Will be traveling the 300 miles by bike, from the south coast. Have been most years, since it converted me in 1962 from a teenager who went on the odd bike ride, into a " proper " cyclist. Have now mellowed and glad to see anybody on any bike. Big thanks Peter to you and the committee for saving the rally and taking it forward. Will be staying at York YHA. Wish they could do a CTC and change the name. I feel a fraud, in a YOUTH hostel at 72 years of age.

[Cyril Haearn]

I would like to read reports from anyone who was there. My last visit was circa 1990

Diolch yn fawr iawn!

[bikepacker]

I enjoyed Chris's talk even though it was hard to hear at times because of the lack of audio equipment. I was especially interested in some of his points on tyre widths and types.

Mark Waters talk following Chris was also very interesting even though the brightness of the marquee lessened the impact of his pictures. Having done an Ireland end to end I could closely relate to what he was saying.

[Paulatic]

I cycled in for both days.
I'd intended to stay for CJ's talk on the Saturday but I was getting cold, and thinking about the 25 ml ride into a headwind back to where I was staying. There was nothing in the auction I was interested in so left after 3pm. The Cycling Bishop was the best talk I listened to. Probably because he could project his voice and make himself heard over the noise of the bar situated next door.
Sunday was slightly warmer but still with the wind. Listened to Reggie but the talk rambled a little like his books IMO.
The camping field looked to be well attended and I understand the rides were too. Everyone I met commented on the number of trade stands being well down. Wheelbuilding demo every hour was excellent and better than watching YouTube

[Vorpal]

The advent of the 'hybrid' bicycle was American and in the late 80s or early 90s following on from mountain biking.

My hybrid is a US built 1993 Raleigh.

Americans needed hybrids. The art of the touring bike had effectively been lost, there. I was fairly keen, and in 1985 or so, the cycling world of Midwestern USA consisted of BMX bike, Mountain bikes, and 'racing' bikes. This was exacerbated by companies like Raleigh who did not import touring bikes because there was no market for them. I did my first tours on a 70s Raleigh Super Grand Prix. It wasn't really suited to carrying luggage, but I made do.

Happily things have changed, and Americans rediscovered mudguards and luggage racks, largely thanks to hybrids.

As for Chris Juden, he does have a very important point about the domination of sport in cycling, and I hope that the next generation of campaigners listen to what he has to say about it.

[bikepete]

Points definitely taken about projector and audio. We'll have to look into other solutions next time.

For the projector, since last year we already found a brighter projector and put the screen under a gazebo within the marquee to try and shade it. But with the sun out on the white marquees there's so much ambient light it's really hard to get any contrast. We may have to go to a flat screen TV type display, but that's perhaps a little more risky to transport and leave in place over the weekend.

For audio, we did procure a portable PA system overnight and had it for the talks on Sunday (although none of the speakers chose to use it). Next time we'll have it for the Saturday talks too.

Just about all of the talks were very well attended, so we'll see if more space can be found, too. But marquee space is one of the biggest costs for the Rally...

Peter Eland
Publicity, York Rally http://www.yorkrally.org
For the all-volunteer York Rally organising committee

[Brucey]

.... The art of the touring bike had effectively been lost, there. I was fairly keen, and in 1985 or so, the cycling world of Midwestern USA consisted of BMX bike, Mountain bikes, and 'racing' bikes. This was exacerbated by companies like Raleigh who did not import touring bikes because there was no market for them.....Happily things have changed, and Americans rediscovered mudguards and luggage racks, largely thanks to hybrids.....

IIRC touring bikes were popular at various times in the US market but sales dropped off (for some reason) in a year that had expected to go the other way. The result was that several importers and distributors had huge stocks left over and for several years afterwards you could still buy a NOS touring bike for buttons in US bike shops. Needless to say they were not keen on repeating this experience (several went bankrupt I think) so touring bikes were simply not made or sold for several years.

The advent of the hybrid was an obvious move; at a time when MTBs were gaining suspension and becoming more focused on specific off-road uses, one would only have needed to look out of the window to see regiments of rigid MTBs being used on the road, so there was a clear need for 'something else' that would be used on the road for general cycling purposes; they just needed to dress the idea up in the right way so that people would buy them. Hybrid bikes (rigid frames with 700C wheels and clearance for ~45mm rubber) were being offered by some manufacturers in the mid 1980s in fact and had I not been keen on proper MTBing I would have bought one then, because I could see that I'd get a lot of use out of such a versatile machine (although I would probably have wanted to fit dropped bars to it).

Arguably a hybrid is essentially a species of touring bike, just with flat bars as the default condition, so that a generation of cyclists brought up on MTBs wouldn't get cockpit alienation. What's in a name, anyway...?

cheers

[horizon]

Great posts freddie and brucey.

+ 1!

[bikepacker]

Points definitely taken about projector and audio. We'll have to look into other solutions next time.

For the projector, since last year we already found a brighter projector and put the screen under a gazebo within the marquee to try and shade it. But with the sun out on the white marquees there's so much ambient light it's really hard to get any contrast. We may have to go to a flat screen TV type display, but that's perhaps a little more risky to transport and leave in place over the weekend.

For audio, we did procure a portable PA system overnight and had it for the talks on Sunday (although none of the speakers chose to use it). Next time we'll have it for the Saturday talks too.

Just about all of the talks were very well attended, so we'll see if more space can be found, too. But marquee space is one of the biggest costs for the Rally...

Peter Eland
Publicity, York Rally http://www.yorkrally.org
For the all-volunteer York Rally organising committee

Peter: Don't take my statement regarding the audio and projector as a criticism, I did not intend them as such.

Overall it was a very good weekend and I was especially pleased with the lightweight section turnout. It looked to me that there were more cycle campers than in many previous years.

How a tread about the Rally and Chris's talk degenerates into postings about American Hybrids by some who were not even at the rally,
is beyond me.

[deliquium]

Great posts freddie and brucey.

+ 1!

+ 1 more

[zenitb]

I somewhat doubt that Shimano set out to woo that most resistant and curmudgeonly (dare I say, tightfisted?) member of the cycling fraternity, the tourist. They couldn't care less.

Sorry for the late comment but I have only just seen this thread and have to reply to this comment .. since I 100% disagree with it.

Shimano do care less, and have released a specific range of groupsets for the tourer. These are the T670 and T780 groupsets and have now been joined by the cheaper T6000 Deore and T4000 Alivio touring groups. Although this looks like re-cycled MTB stuff there are some quite subtle touches - for example the T670 V-brakes are 107mm long rather than the normal 103mm specifically so they can clear tyres AND mudguards. The brake levers are longer, 3 or 4 finger designs since tourers are not going to be one finger braking !! The T670 hubs are beautifully anodised and with their MTB heritage rugged design are my hub of choice for wheelbuilding.

I love the Shimano "T" series groupsets and look forward to Shimano developing their touring (a.k.a. "trekking") range. I do feel though that many cycle tourers are unaware of the T series.

Here is a recent review .. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... set-50234/

[NetworkMan]

I somewhat doubt that Shimano set out to woo that most resistant and curmudgeonly (dare I say, tightfisted?) member of the cycling fraternity, the tourist. They couldn't care less.

Sorry for the late comment but I have only just seen this thread and have to reply to this comment .. since I 100% disagree with it.

Shimano do care less, and have released a specific range of groupsets for the tourer. These are the T670 and T780 groupsets and have now been joined by the cheaper T6000 Deore and T4000 Alivio touring groups. Although this looks like re-cycled MTB stuff there are some quite subtle touches - for example the T670 V-brakes are 107mm long rather than the normal 103mm specifically so they can clear tyres AND mudguards. The brake levers are longer, 3 or 4 finger designs since tourers are not going to be one finger braking !! The T670 hubs are beautifully anodised and with their MTB heritage rugged design are my hub of choice for wheelbuilding.

I love the Shimano "T" series groupsets and look forward to Shimano developing their touring (a.k.a. "trekking") range. I do feel though that many cycle tourers are unaware of the T series.

Here is a recent review .. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... set-50234/

But where are the STI levers for v-brakes?
Where are the drop bar v-brake levers?
Where is the triple chainset with useful 110/74 BCD?
Where is the triple chainset for 45 mm chainline with low Q factor?
Where is the front derallieur to suit the above?
Where are the 13-30, 13-32 and 13-34 cassettes?
Where are the rear hubs with 130 OLN and relatively low dish like the old 8/9/10 speed ones?

It's just another mildly cooked mountainbike groupset