Chris Juden's talk at the 2017 York Rally

[NetworkMan]

I somewhat doubt that Shimano set out to woo that most resistant and curmudgeonly (dare I say, tightfisted?) member of the cycling fraternity, the tourist. They couldn't care less.

Sorry for the late comment but I have only just seen this thread and have to reply to this comment .. since I 100% disagree with it.

Shimano do care less, and have released a specific range of groupsets for the tourer. These are the T670 and T780 groupsets and have now been joined by the cheaper T6000 Deore and T4000 Alivio touring groups. Although this looks like re-cycled MTB stuff there are some quite subtle touches - for example the T670 V-brakes are 107mm long rather than the normal 103mm specifically so they can clear tyres AND mudguards. The brake levers are longer, 3 or 4 finger designs since tourers are not going to be one finger braking !! The T670 hubs are beautifully anodised and with their MTB heritage rugged design are my hub of choice for wheelbuilding.

I love the Shimano "T" series groupsets and look forward to Shimano developing their touring (a.k.a. "trekking") range. I do feel though that many cycle tourers are unaware of the T series.

Here is a recent review .. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... set-50234/

But where are the STI levers for v-brakes?
Where are the drop bar v-brake levers?
Where is the triple chainset with useful 110/74 BCD?
Where is the triple chainset for 45 mm chainline with low Q factor?
Where is the front derallieur to suit the above?
Where are the 13-30, 13-32 and 13-34 cassettes?
Where are the rear hubs with 130 OLN and relatively low dish like the old 8/9/10 speed ones?

It's just another mildly cooked mountainbike groupset

Edit:
Oh, I forgot
Where are the bar-end shifters?
Where are the downtube shifters?

[pwa]

The problem is that Shimano don't understand, or care, that some of us still want to tour with drop bars. We find them more comfortable. Which leaves us trying to get their MTB drive trains with levers not intended for that purpose.

[NetworkMan]

Yes, but did you read that bikeradar review? The reviewer comes from Bristol! Where has he been!! In the comments section someone mentions drop bars and v-brakes and he says use Tektro! That's after saying that this MTB style groupset is the best thing since sliced bread!! Down the road in Bridgewater, SJS are cobbling bikes together in need of the parts he's implying are available!

[Brucey]

I have to say I am somewhat more in agreement with Network Man's post above than the one preceding it. Having said that, we'd undoubtedly be worse off without such groupsets; after all the MTB world has moved on from the kind parts that are in the T series groupsets.

Of the parts in the T series groupsets I like the hubs, the rear derailleurs, and, er, that's it.

BTW it might not axiomatic of the type in everyone's eyes, but I have always thought that (in contrast to 'trekking bikes' and the like) the UK idea of a touring bike is very often closer to racehorse than carthorse, if you see what I mean. For many years the fattest tyre that might be fitted was ~32mm (not that wide in a modern context) and componentry was -with simplicity and functionality its touchstones- more likely to owe its origins in racing rather than (say) a carrier bike or an offroad machine ; take the mudguards and rack off, fit a set of lightweight wheels, and 'have a go' in the club '10'.... For many riders, their touring mileage is/was mainly made up of long day rides, youth hostel/B&B/lightweight camping trips lasting just a few days, that kind of thing; yes you can load up the bike with four panniers if you like but that is not the raison d'etre of such machines.

Of the bigger overseas-based brands, most of them 'just don't get it'. But a few do; Fuji and Jamis spring to mind; their OTP tourers are a lot closer than most to the kind of thing that UK club riders have chosen for decades.

cheers

[pwa]

My test for any bike calling itself a Tourer is the lowest gear. Close to 20", yes, great. 30", no it's not a tourer. I like and require drops, but that doesn't mean others can't have a tourer with other bar styles.

[NetworkMan]

I don't in any way blame most of the rest of the planet for not getting it but I'm surprised when a cycling journalist from Bristol doesn't! By the way Sugino are still making their 110/74 BCD triple for 45 mm chainline:-
https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products ... pina2.html
Yours for 22,100 yen sir, or £154. I wonder which FD they expect one to use with it?
Edit
Did those 4 arm cranksets first appear as microdrive with 42/32/22 or thereabouts? I don't understand why they didn't bring back 110/74 for the T series. My 1993 Dawes Horizon came with a Deore LX 110/74 and I think it's setup for 45 mm chainline but using a 300LX FD, friction shift of course. Maybe some mountainbikes were 45 mm chainline then.

[zenitb]

The problem is that Shimano don't understand, or care, that some of us still want to tour with drop bars. We find them more comfortable. Which leaves us trying to get their MTB drive trains with levers not intended for that purpose.

I think this is the key point here. The rest of the world - particularly Germany - sees touring bikes as "trekking bikes" with flat bars and bar ends, chunky 26" tyres, stronger 135mm rear wheel spacing and even hydraulic brakes (with the option of Vs). Shimano need a critical mass to sell a groupset and think they are going for the German "trekking bike" model.

[pwa]

The problem is that Shimano don't understand, or care, that some of us still want to tour with drop bars. We find them more comfortable. Which leaves us trying to get their MTB drive trains with levers not intended for that purpose.

I think this is the key point here. The rest of the world - particularly Germany - sees touring bikes as "trekking bikes" with flat bars and bar ends, chunky 26" tyres, stronger 135mm rear wheel spacing and even hydraulic brakes (with the option of Vs). Shimano need a critical mass to sell a groupset and think they are going for the German "trekking bike" model.

I wonder if Shimano could just get things sorted with the levers, so that any 11 speed lever could work with any mech, MTB or road. Too much to ask? How could it hurt Shimano sales if all their kit could be mixed and matched?

[zenitb]

My test for any bike calling itself a Tourer is the lowest gear. Close to 20", yes, great. 30", no it's not a tourer. I like and require drops, but that doesn't mean others can't have a tourer with other bar styles.

My position on this has changed over time. My old Viking and Dawes Galaxy tourers had drops but I came to realise after a time that the Galaxy was really a day/road tourer. Too much scary flex with panniers and pretty sketchy on unmade tracks/canal towpaths etc. My interests now are more around extended tours on the growing Sustrans network, where road surfaces are variable, plus I am going back to cycle camping and the combination of these two factors means the Germanic "trekking" rather than the "classic british touring bike" format is more appealing to me at present. UK Sales success for bikes like the Thorn Nomad and Surly Troll indicate I am not alone here I think.

There is nothing wrong with the "Classic British Touring" bike format of course.. if that is what you want .. particularly for day tours. I would agree though that there is no one Shimano groupset for this sort of bike - its just too niche internationally. Maybe the triple Tiagra groupset with selected bits from one of the new Cyclecross ones. My BTwin Tiban 540 (really a day tourer) has space for 32mm tyres and guards and although the rest of the groupset is Shimano 105 it has to use long drop Tektro brakes to get the clearance (which actually work well). I would never go camping or youth hostelling on this bike though.

We should probably qualify the term "Touring Bike" and break it down into sub categories like "Classic British Touring Bike", "Trekking Bike", "Expedition Bike" categories... otherwise we will forever be talking at cross purposes ?

[Mick F]

The way ahead, is to use friction shifters, be they DT or bar-end or Kelly Take-offs.
When my Campag Ergo 10sp give up the ghost, they won't be replaced and I'll revert to my friction DT shifters.
I can't be doing with all this guff about indexing any more.

[Brucey]

It is worth noting that the pairing that most tourists have used (more than any other over the last ~20 years) of 9s 'road' STIs with a 9s MTB cassette is one that Shimano never actually endorsed; there is a small difference in the cable pulls of 'road' and 'MTB' 9s shifters so that in principle they are not perfectly compatible.

The difference seems to be in the middle of the cassette, and is to do with the ramp transitions in 9s cassettes; there is a point at which sprockets with two ramps transition to sprockets with three ramps and of course most of the ramps do not line up in that one shift. To help this shift along, there is one slightly longer cable pull in the shifter (even though the sprockets are uniformly spaced). Because MTN cassettes are built different to 'road' cassettes the long pull in the shifter is in a different place depending on which kind of cassette is in use. The reality is that in most such setups, there is a tiny hesitation in 'the bad shift', so slight that most folk don't even notice. If they made their sprockets slightly differently, there wouldn't even be a theoretical problem.

That the folk at shimano neither know nor care about the lot of the dropped bar tourist is pretty evident from the bits they offer. In fact things have been getting worse; most of their 'road triple' models have been discontinued and those that remain mostly no longer have a 74mm BCD which will accept a really small inside chainring. Sorry shimano, a 30T inside chainring on a triple isn't small enough for most tourists....

BTW you can tour on anything, but most people have a good idea of what you mean when you say 'touring bike', there is no real need for additional qualifiers.

cheers

[pete75]

Why this fixation with Shimano? There are other component makers. For example Stronglight Impact and Spa cycles similar XD offer 74 BCD for the inside ring, Tektro RL520 work very well with drop bars and V brakes. There's no reason at all to fit a group set just mix and match components to suit.

[zenitb]

The problem is that Shimano don't understand, or care, that some of us still want to tour with drop bars. We find them more comfortable. Which leaves us trying to get their MTB drive trains with levers not intended for that purpose.

I think this is the key point here. The rest of the world - particularly Germany - sees touring bikes as "trekking bikes" with flat bars and bar ends, chunky 26" tyres, stronger 135mm rear wheel spacing and even hydraulic brakes (with the option of Vs). Shimano need a critical mass to sell a groupset and think they are going for the German "trekking bike" model.

I wonder if Shimano could just get things sorted with the levers, so that any 11 speed lever could work with any mech, MTB or road. Too much to ask? How could it hurt Shimano sales if all their kit could be mixed and matched?

Agreed pwa.. during the 8/9 speed era the freewheels were the same width, the mechs had the same ratio, and the index spacing was the same between mountain and road groupsets as long as you had the same number of speeds. The Shimano decision to have 11 speed road and MTB cassette widths and cog spacing different seems crazy to me... my tourer ( trekking) bike has a hyperglide 8 speed block and Deore thumbshifters and I wont be upgrading it any time soon !!

[NetworkMan]

Why this fixation with Shimano? There are other component makers. For example Stronglight Impact and Spa cycles similar XD offer 74 BCD for the inside ring, Tektro RL520 work very well with drop bars and V brakes. There's no reason at all to fit a group set just mix and match components to suit.

Of course, people on this site and elsewhere are doing just that. The OP and the reference quoted were implying that Shimano do care and as I've pointed out that's not true. We can mix and match but a few problems remain, for example bar-end and downtube shifters with rear indexing are not available in many varieties at reasonable prices and suitable FDs designed for 45 mm chainline can be hard to find. If you do want to use STI or similar with front indexing then FD problems get worse due to the lack of matching between FD and chainring sizes.

It is Shimano's domination of the market that forces some components from other makers to be compatible and thus inherit some of the problems of which we are only too aware.

[NetworkMan]

We should probably qualify the term "Touring Bike" and break it down into sub categories like "Classic British Touring Bike", "Trekking Bike", "Expedition Bike" categories... otherwise we will forever be talking at cross purposes ?

I suspect that most people on here don't need all that complication ; we know what we are talking about