Gear adjustment screws - What screwdriver?

[Gattonero]

It is worth pointing out that the flat slot on those screw is rather shallow and the precision leaves a lot to desire.
When you've successfully removed some very stiff screws with slotted head, from a sewing machine made in Germany, you realize that the vast majority of other screws&bolts you see around, they are utter rubbish.

The weakness of a slotted head is right in the general consensus that "a flat screwdriver will do".
This can be true only if a screw requires only modest torque to be removed or adjusted; but when the game gets a bit tough, there it comes a chewed slotted head.

A flat screwdriver that fits precisely in a slotted head can transfer a good amount of torque, because this is spread across almost all the length of the slot.
On the other hand, a flat screwdriver/screw that has a sloppy fit is able to transfer the torque only on the ends of the slot, because is essentially pivoting in between the slot.

As I said before

Make it very simple:
If the screw is easy to turn, you can use almost anything that would somehow fit.
If the screw feels hard to turn, stop and use the proper tool.

[rjb]

so.... flat blade it is, then....

cheers

Unless you have a nice mech like this Mavic which only needs a 2.5mm Allen key. This is how they all should have been.

[reohn2]

so.... flat blade it is, then....

cheers

[andrew_s]

Vessel JIS screwdrivers and screwdriver bits are available fairly cheaply from here: https://www.dateelectronicsupplies.co.uk
(Megadora JIS#2 £5.65, bits £2.18)
I think I'll swap the philips bits in my touring toolkit for the JIS versions

Here you go!
Shimano on the left.
Campag on the right.IMG_0164.JPG

Presumably Campag is Philips?
If so, it shows nicely why Philips screwdrivers don't work well on JIS screws - they hit the flat bottom before the wings have got a proper grip

[Mick F]

so.... flat blade it is, then....

cheers

+1

[Samuel D]

Unless you have a nice mech like this Mavic which only needs a 2.5mm Allen key. This is how they all should have been.

Not sure that’s an improvement, although the rest of them are finally following Mavic today. Small Allen head screws round out at least as easily as any alternative, especially when dirt prevents full engagement as is often the case if you’re not careful. In contrast, it’s easy to scrape out dirt with the corner of a flathead screwdriver before using it to turn the usual limit screws on the roadside.

[reohn2]

We have three choices of tool which will do the job:-
a)JIS=perfect and correct not readily available at your local tool shop
b)flat blade=good to very good and everyone has one
c)PH size 1=good (unless seized)
The choice is yours should you accept the mission.This tape will self destruct in the next 5 minutes

[cameraman]

Luckily years ago I fixed ATMs as part of my job, the guy who trained us gave all the engineers a stubby and full sized Vessel JIS screwdriver, to be used on our ATMs as they had Japanese cross head screws. I still have them and they are the perfect fit. They are almost identical to a Philips 2 but not quite.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my iPad using hovercraft full of eels.

[Gattonero]

Left to right:
-Vessell JIS n.2
-Park Tool PH2
-Park Tool PH2 with slightly gound off tip
-Wiha PH2 (this seems a shorter type of Philips)
-Hozan JIS n.2


Having tried them all, let me tell you that the Park Tool is not JIS type. By using the Park screwdriver on a proper JIS screw like a Shimano RD/FD, there is easily a 15º of play; while on the same screw a JIS screwdriver has virtually zero play.

Furthermore, even if such test is flawed for real-life conditions, by locking a few of those Shimano RD/FD crews in a vice and using a precision Torque Screwdriver with different bits, the results were the following:

-cheap PH2 bit: max. 1.25Nm with good downward force before cam-out, 1.50Nm by applying considerable downward force
-quality PH2 bit (Wera): max 1.75Nm with good downward force, 2.25Nm with considerable downward force
-proper JIS n.2 bit (Vessel): max 2.5Nm with very little downward force, applying more force would get only to 2.75Nm before the screw head breaks down.

It was also interesting to note how the screw would fail:
-the play of a PH screwdriver gets the JIS crew rounded off as the screwdriver tip tries to cam out but is held by great downward force
-a JIS bit or screwdriver would litterally break the screw at the maximum torque that can be applied.

This shows clearly that those screws are meant to cope with modest torque values in the first place, and that is ok as they are not supposed to seize or rust, so there is no real "breakaway torque", but rather a "prevailing torque" that is as little as 1Nm or less (!).
At that point, any half-decent screwdriver can move the screw.

[keyboardmonkey]

Setting aside discussions on flat blade screwdrivers...

Good video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT-IUJualdc]. I may get a Park Tool screwdriver if I can find confirmation that they are JIS.

Crc are selling the park #2 philips screwdriver for £3 at the moment -
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/park ... prod149820
Most people seem to agree that it's actually jis, it's also a pretty decent screwdriver in its own right.

Looking at the Q&A on the page you have linked to, CRC state specifically that it is not JIS.

The head angle on the sd2 certainly looks more phillipino.

I can see how 'Whiggy' when reviewing the Park Tool SD2 might think that it is a JIS screwdriver. If, say, s/he had used a Stanley PH#2 then the equivalent Park Tool screwdriver it would be a considerable improvement. But as Gattonero writes the Park Tool SD2 is not a JIS screwdriver. There is just too much play compared to the Vessel Megadora 900 +2 screwdriver. [edit: I was using the Park Tool SD2 that I had received this week from CRC.]

So what's the head on Campagnolo limit screws? And SRAM?

I tried three screwdrivers in an SRAM rear mech. One was a Cyclo PH2 (spun around in the limit screw head) that was on the peg board of the shop where I have been working, one was a slightly worn Park Tool PH2 - wonder why? - that I found in a drawer (spun around) and then I tried the Vessel. It fitted perfectly in the SRAM rear mech limit screws.

[keyboardmonkey]

At the risk of coming across as ever-so-slightly obsessed by this topic, and just in case there are any Park Tool fans out there who are holding out for a JIS screwdriver in their favourite colour scheme...

Scroll down about half the page to the image captioned "Park Tool will soon offer professional-level screwdrivers that are built to the modern equivalent of the JIS standard. If you’re stripping derailleur limit screws, this is a product for you."

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/eurobik ... e-day-two/

[reohn2]

At the risk of coming across as ever-so-slightly obsessed by this topic, and just in case there are any Park Tool fans out there who are holding out for a JIS screwdriver in their favourite colour scheme...

Scroll down about half the page to the image captioned "Park Tool will soon offer professional-level screwdrivers that are built to the modern equivalent of the JIS standard. If you’re stripping derailleur limit screws, this is a product for you."

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/eurobik ... e-day-two/

<off topic>
After browsing all the articles in that link it brought home how cycling is quickly disappearing up it's own rectum,and has become a technophile's orgasmatron

[Samuel D]

It’s awful, isn’t it. Surely that whole glitzy page contains nothing of the cycling we know and love. It’s wanton consumerism at its basest, and it saddens me to think that this has become accepted as the norm. Who’s fighting the good fight these days? I have to hunt out books from the 1970s (before I was born!) to hear people speak out against this approach.

[Gattonero]

...holding out for a JIS screwdriver in their favourite colour scheme...

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/eurobik ... e-day-two/

<off topic>
After browsing all the articles in that link it brought home how cycling is quickly disappearing up it's own rectum,and has become a technophile's orgasmatron

It’s awful, isn’t it. Surely that whole glitzy page contains nothing of the cycling we know and love. It’s wanton consumerism at its basest, and it saddens me to think that this has become accepted as the norm. Who’s fighting the good fight these days? I have to hunt out books from the 1970s (before I was born!) to hear people speak out against this approach.

What's got to do with a screwdriver?
In this thread there's actually some valid info about how a JIS screwdriver gives a better fit (wonder if others have actually bothered to try one, let alone to compare the torque that PH or JIS can handle!), and where to get one for litterally a couple of pounds. More useful that a simple "rant", I'd say!

Btw, people who work in cycling events -not just races- make their "colour scheme" for tools with something so expensive and sophisticated...as electtrical tape! since it happens to work in awkward conditions, with poor light and so on, several mechanics would colour-code their spanners and allen keys to reach the correct size with no mistake even in poor light conditions. Of course, this "is all BS..." for the ones that are obsessed with austerity and can't see the big picture

[Bonefishblues]

Seriously .... what screwdriver ? ..... your doomed ......

I've just read the thread for the first time. I suspect you've been vindicated on this occasion