Bike Builders in Hull

[StanleyMC]

HI, I am new here, so a big hello to everyone.

I have just acquired a vintage (1978 I think) hand built “mixte” ladies bike.
I was told it was custom built in Hull for a lady who raced.
I believe the paint is original but there are no decals only an embossed “B” with a three pointed crown above it, at the top of the rear fork stay.
Could the “B” and the crown mean “Queen Bee”
It is very light, and all of the hang on bits are Suntour AR, Mafac Campagnola etc it would have been high end at the time.
Can you help me identify it?
How do I attach photos here?
Many thanks in advance. I would be grateful for any help..
Have Fun
Stanley
]

[keyboardmonkey]

I would start by asking for Pete Dunn at Cottingham Cycle Centre. He's semi-retired now, but if he's not your man he may be able to help.

http://www.cottinghamcyclecentre.co.uk/

Other longstanding shops in Hull are Cliff Pratt's and Ken Ellerker Cycles. A bit more info here:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/hull- ... er.171113/

Best wishes.

[StanleyMC]

Many Thanks, I have already talked with the Cliff Pratt team,and they say it is not one of theirs. I shall try the link you provided. It may be that the bike was only assembled in Hull and the parts bought in. What intrigues me most is the B and the Crown . Stanley
The bike only weighs 10 kilos fully loaded

[resus1uk]

Looks very similar to my 1953 Bob Jackson mixte, restored three years ago.
Could it be one of their frames from Leeds, made up locally?

[Brucey]

it looks to me like a reasonably nice factory-built OTP ladies touring frameset. Although the bike may have been built up from a frameset (rather than as a complete factory made bike) I don't for a moment think it is a first class handbuilt custom-made frame.

The reason I think this is that most builders of such handbuilt framesets wouldn't have used the component parts of the frame in the 'as-received' condition, yet this is evidently what has happened here. For example the seat lug and head lugs have not been filed much at all, and the cross-brace (where the lateral stays meet the seat tube) appears to have a large casting/forming mark across it. A one-off handbuilt frameset would usually not have these features, because the builder would have fettled all the parts before building the frame up. By contrast in a more mass-production situation, there is no time for that sort of thing. It is neatly brazed though.

The seatstay eyes ought to be a big giveaway; however I don't remember what brand that might be. In the late 1970s there were dozens of builders who might have built frames like that. The bolt-on components used appear to have come straight from the Ron Kitching catalogue. The bike won't weigh that much because none of the parts is especially heavy. The parts may be dated by looking at the two-letter date code that you will find on many of them. The Sun Tour AR series mechs didn't exist before 1981 (IIRC) so if that is what you have it places the build-up (if not the frame build itself) after that date.

If the frame has 700C wheels and is that date, it strongly suggests that the frame is of European origin, because a British-made frameset of that type would usually have had 27" wheels in it at that time.

You can usually judge the tubeset quality by checking the seat pin diameter. The seat tube on most frames is 1-1/8" OD and a real lightweight will have a 27.2mm seat pin in it. 26.8mm indicates a plain gauge (rather than DB) tubeset and 26.4mm or smaller indicates a heavy gauge frame of quality (for touring with a load on) or (more likely) a frame constructed from less expensive heavier gauge tubing. An important exception to this might be if the frame is built in french gauge tubing, in which case the seat tube has a smaller OD and even a nice DB frameset won't have a seat pin any larger than 26.6mm inserted into it.

I have seen numerous French-built frames that are very similar to yours, often with various different brandings on them. However none have had the top eyes like yours. Regardless of who built it and how it was built, I'd expect it to ride nicely, probably better than 99% of the bikes you will find on sale in bike shops today.

hth

cheers

[Cyril Haearn]

Better than 99% of bikes on sale now?

I know modern motor vehicles are getting worse in many ways (heavier, uglier, too much technik) but is that true of *man's most perfect machine*?

[Buk]

OTP ladies touring frameset.

OTP?

I found One Trick Pony, On The Piste, One Time Password; none of which seem to fit here?

[thirdcrank]

OTP is presumably off-the-peg.

I think the main point is that this isn't some classic lightweights heirloom.

[Brucey]

Better than 99% of bikes on sale now?

I know modern motor vehicles are getting worse in many ways (heavier, uglier, too much technik) but is that true of *man's most perfect machine*?

I did say 'probably'.... which you can take in a Carlsberg-esque way if you like....

But yes, frames of that particular design do have a fine ride quality even if they are not made in the most lightweight materials. The reason is that the whole frame is pretty flexible by virtue of the design, and will ride the bumps very well. Absolutely no good at all for out-of-the-saddle 1kW efforts, or trying stoppies (the frame will probably bend if you try this) but fine for cruising around on. If you have never ridden one, I'd suggest that you might be surprised, they are very comfy.

A few years back I fixed up a Claud Butler ladydale of circa 1982 vintage. Now that was a nice-riding lightweight mixte frame; I doubt there are many nicer OTP (off the peg) frames of this type that are readily found in fact. I sold the bike on to a lady colleague of mine, who had struggled to find anything modern that was fitted her and was affordable, lightweight and comfortable. I asked her to let me know how she was getting on with it after a month or so; she was so happy with the bike that she nearly burst into tears when explaining it to me, poor lass.

cheers

[Cyril Haearn]

+1 for mixte frames with twinlat tubes:

if it looks right, it is right!

[StanleyMC]

Many Thanks to everyone for there interest and replies !!!

Just to confirm some details relating to "Bruceys" observations, The rear seat tube OD is 1 1/8, and the seat tube Diameter is 26.8 mm.
The wheels are 27 shimano hubs with I think Mavic rims and Schwalbe Skin 25 Tyres. As it rides so well I haven't taken it to pieces yet so cannot see a date stamp on the suntour mechs.
Where would it be?
The total weight even with the rust comes in at just 10 Kilos.
The brakes are centre pull Mafac, with pivots attached to the front and rear forks, i haven't seen pivot brakes on any of the other "mixte" bike frames I have researched, except for on a Stan Pike. Stan Pikes son says that it is not one of theirs, as do the Cliff Pratt team in Hull.

Someone out there must be able to recognise the Crown and the "B". Could it mean Queen Bee?


The mystery continues. Many thanks again to all.

[StanleyMC]

I have been checking out Bob Jackson Mixte bikes and I found two with exactly the same lugwork on te Headstock and Seat tube. Dous anyone have any contact deatils for "Bob Jackson"?
But not the Crown and the B.

[resus1uk]

My Jackson mixte has similar (but not identical ) lugs on the crown . My frame is 531 made for display on Jackson ' s stand at the Coronation year CTCSS rally in York.
Jackson still exist in Leeds & have a website.
I last contacted them in 2014 to refinish my mixte frame

[thirdcrank]

Contact details for Bob Jackson on their contact page.

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/contact/

They've been at the current location quite a while (25 years?) but there's no shop now. While they've been at the current location, I've been there and they told me they still had all the frame numbers going back to the Hyde Park Road days. (A couple of different locations in between.)

So, unlike a lot of other builders, I think they should still be able to deal with the query. I suspect that when records are lost, it's generally when there's a change of location and ownership.

[Brucey]

if they are shimano hubs there ought to be a date code on those. On some models it would be a sticker (long since gone probably) but on many it is stamped in the barrel. Some other hubs have the date marked right on them.

Sun Tour rear mechs will usually have a two letter date code (a different code sequence to shimano BTW) on the back, most often on the rear of the parallelogram.

26.8 seat pin says 'plain gauge seat tube' so nice quality but maybe not super-lightweight per se.

Most framebuilders use lugs from a third-party manufacturer, so to find the same lugs isn't that meaningful unless they are in the exact same combination and they have been fettled in exactly the same way as a known frame, and the frame numbers come from the same series etc. The B thing is distinctive enough, but we just don't know what it is!

BTW the brakes you have appear to be 'Mafac Criterium' cantilevers.

If you say 'centre pulls' some Americans may understand you to mean this type of brake but not anyone else. These Mafacs were a very common lightweight brake, used by many different manufacturers at that time.

cheers