Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

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mikeymo
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Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

(sort of) buyers remorse. Buyers doubts, maybe.

Got a good deal on an excellent condition Ridgeback World Journey. Steel framed Alfine 8 Tourer. They don't do it anymore, but here's what it was like when they did.

https://www.evanscycles.com/ridgeback-journey-2012-touring-bike-EV156275

I have doubts about the drops, and am weighing up the idea of flat bars.

Man in bike shop says that'll change the handling, the geometry was built for drops etc. etc.

How true is that? We often ride on the straight part of drop bars. Isn't that where flat bars would be (but a bit wider)? If a flat bar made the reach too short, a longer stem would compensate, and make the steering slower, no? At the moment the reach is too much, for me, and looking at forums, it was too much for other people who bought this bike - I've got a slightly shorter, adjustable stem coming. It's a 56cm, I'm 5'10" with 32.5" inseam. Going by the figures I'm kind of the right size for the bike.

I know I need to spend some time getting used to the bike, and I've got a lot of Scottish cycling next week to do that, but if I'm going to sell it on, I need to make that decision relatively quickly, while it's still in good nick. In the past I've held on to stuff for too long, it deteriorates (I've nowhere warm and dry to keep this) then I have to sell cheap.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
fatboy
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by fatboy »

I've done the same on my hack bike and the handling is different but it's ok. I've got quite a long stem.

Canti brakes are much better with flat bars BTW
"Marriage is a wonderful invention; but then again so is the bicycle puncture repair kit." - Billy Connolly
mikeymo
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

Thanks. 'Different' in what sort of way? Or isn't it possible to put it into words?

I've got a spare 31.8 straight bar (well, a bit hybrid style curved, you know what I mean), I've even got a couple of Nexus Twist shifters on other bikes I could borrow, so all I'd be looking at would be two brake levers. So it wouldn't be the most expensive experiment in the world.

One reason I'm having doubts is that there have been a few reports of the Versa VRS-8 brifters not being that reliable. And they don't make them anymore, and what's more NOBODY makes brifters for the 8 speed Alfine. Really, I've looked all over the place and they don't. So if the brifters fail, I'm into a bar end, trigger or twist shift somewhere, or changing the whole thing to an Alfine 11, because there ARE brifters for those.

Or straight bars, because there's a million and one shifters that'll work with them.
PH
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by PH »

It'll be fine, loads of touring frames get built up with different bars. Lots of things change the way a bike handles, but unless you're talking about extremes you'll soon get used to it. If you do change, I'd spend a few more quid and swap the brakes to Vs at the same time.
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531colin
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by 531colin »

Bicycle steering has an element of self-centering, tyre drag is the force that centers the steering, acting through the "lever" of steering trail.....thats the distance the front tyre contact patch is behind where a line drawn through the headset intersects the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry

So, riding no hands, the shape/position of the bars makes no difference at all.
Riding hands on, the further forward your hands are, the more weight on the front wheel the greater the tyre drag, and the greater the self centering of the steering, the more stable the bike feels.
I doubt you will notice a difference in steering feel going from tops to hoods to drops on the drop bars. So you won't notice a difference between the tops of the drops and a flat bar that puts your hands in the same place.(NB....most "flat" bars are swept back, which brings your hands further back)
mikeymo
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

PH wrote:It'll be fine, loads of touring frames get built up with different bars. Lots of things change the way a bike handles, but unless you're talking about extremes you'll soon get used to it. If you do change, I'd spend a few more quid and swap the brakes to Vs at the same time.


Thanks. If I believe everything I read on the interwebs this would alter the handling so much I'll just fall off! But the frame is about the right size for me so I won't be doing anything to weird.

Yes, I probably would do Vs, as apparently the bosses are the same. Though it will mean that there'll be an unused mounting point thingy (it must have a better name) under the saddle for the cantilever brakes. That would totally and utterly ruin the whole aesthetic of the bike;-)

I haven't got time to do this before I set off for my hols, where there (weather permitting) be lots of riding, I'll see how I feel when I come back, after a week on drops.
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531colin
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by 531colin »

PH wrote:........ Lots of things change the way a bike handles,......


Well, once you have got the head angle and fork offset fixed, that fixes the trail. So handling is altered by
load
handgrip position (but only big changes)
Front tyre type and pressure.

Got any more?
mikeymo
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

531colin wrote:Bicycle steering has an element of self-centering, tyre drag is the force that centers the steering, acting through the "lever" of steering trail.....thats the distance the front tyre contact patch is behind where a line drawn through the headset intersects the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry

So, riding no hands, the shape/position of the bars makes no difference at all.
Riding hands on, the further forward your hands are, the more weight on the front wheel the greater the tyre drag, and the greater the self centering of the steering, the more stable the bike feels.
I doubt you will notice a difference in steering feel going from tops to hoods to drops on the drop bars. So you won't notice a difference between the tops of the drops and a flat bar that puts your hands in the same place.(NB....most "flat" bars are swept back, which brings your hands further back)


Thanks. And I could/would put a slightly longer stem on to compensate for any difference, to get swept-back-a-little flat bars further forward, maybe?
Brucey
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by Brucey »

If I was in your shoes I wouldn't worry too much about lack of replacement VR-8 shifters. The reason for this is that

a) they don't go wrong that often and
b) it might not be an economic repair anyway.

I'm guessing here but in a year or two's time (say) when the shifters break are you going to tip £200 into that bike when you could (as you say) fit a different shifter on a bracket somewhere instead? I'm not sure I would.

BTW I recently made this nifty bracket to fit an A8 trigger to dropped bars
Image

I'm sure that something similar could be made for a twistgrip too.

Re handling changes with flat bars; it all depends on how short the stem is, how high and wide the bars are, and how much trail the steering has anyway. At best this conversion is just fine; at worst it results in a bike with rather twitchy steering.

cheers
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531colin
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by 531colin »

mikeymo wrote:
531colin wrote:Bicycle steering has an element of self-centering, tyre drag is the force that centers the steering, acting through the "lever" of steering trail.....thats the distance the front tyre contact patch is behind where a line drawn through the headset intersects the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry

So, riding no hands, the shape/position of the bars makes no difference at all.
Riding hands on, the further forward your hands are, the more weight on the front wheel the greater the tyre drag, and the greater the self centering of the steering, the more stable the bike feels.
I doubt you will notice a difference in steering feel going from tops to hoods to drops on the drop bars. So you won't notice a difference between the tops of the drops and a flat bar that puts your hands in the same place.(NB....most "flat" bars are swept back, which brings your hands further back)


Thanks. And I could/would put a slightly longer stem on to compensate for any difference, to get swept-back-a-little flat bars further forward, maybe?


Absolutely.
mikeymo
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

Brucey wrote:If I was in your shoes I wouldn't worry too much about lack of replacement VR-8 shifters. The reason for this is that

a) they don't go wrong that often and
b) it might not be an economic repair anyway.

I'm guessing here but in a year or two's time (say) when the shifters break are you going to tip £200 into that bike when you could (as you say) fit a different shifter on a bracket somewhere instead? I'm not sure I would.

BTW I recently made this nifty bracket to fit an A8 trigger to dropped bars
Image

I'm sure that something similar could be made for a twistgrip too.

Re handling changes with flat bars; it all depends on how short the stem is, how high and wide the bars are, and how much trail the steering has anyway. At best this conversion is just fine; at worst it results in a bike with rather twitchy steering.

cheers


Thanks. You haven't had any VR-8s have you? I'm wondering if there's anything I should do do maintain them? And there's a weird click from them. I'll start a thread.

As this was designed by Ridgeback as a touring bike, it's presumably got whatever the opposite is of twitchy steering. So hopefully any changes I make will just make it less non-twitchy, but not actually twitchy, or not very.
Brucey
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by Brucey »

mikeymo wrote: Thanks. You haven't had any VR-8s have you? I'm wondering if there's anything I should do do maintain them? And there's a weird click from them. I'll start a thread.


a chum has VR11s and they have produced iffy shifting only when the cables were bad or the mechanism wasn't lubed. A lot like other STIs in fact. They have seen about five years of daily use; not that many miles but possibly harder than average ones.

As this was designed by Ridgeback as a touring bike, it's presumably got whatever the opposite is of twitchy steering. So hopefully any changes I make will just make it less non-twitchy, but not actually twitchy, or not very.


Doesn't always follow, that; some folk design touring bikes with less trail than other road bikes, on the basis that the steering will be too slow with a front load on otherwise. I think it would be wise to check the trail figure.

cheers
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PH
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by PH »

531colin wrote:
PH wrote:........ Lots of things change the way a bike handles,......


Well, once you have got the head angle and fork offset fixed, that fixes the trail. So handling is altered by
load
handgrip position (but only big changes)
Front tyre type and pressure.

Got any more?

How many do you want?
By the time you've run through the variations of your list it amounts to lots in my book. Though I would also add rider position though you could count that as a variation of load.
mikeymo
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by mikeymo »

Brucey wrote:
mikeymo wrote: Thanks. You haven't had any VR-8s have you? I'm wondering if there's anything I should do do maintain them? And there's a weird click from them. I'll start a thread.


a chum has VR11s and they have produced iffy shifting only when the cables were bad or the mechanism wasn't lubed. A lot like other STIs in fact. They have seen about five years of daily use; not that many miles but possibly harder than average ones.


That's reassuring. I'll assume (perhaps mistakenly) that the 8 speed ones are simpler than the 11 speed, so hopefully more robust. I can find precisely zero documentation on the shifters. Do you have any idea what would be a good care regime for them? Has your chum ever said what he does? Mine will sometimes drop all the way to 1st on a down shift, it seems if I'm anything less than completely positive on the small button. This is common, apparently.
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531colin
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Re: Drops to straight bar conversion handling.

Post by 531colin »

PH wrote:
531colin wrote:
PH wrote:........ Lots of things change the way a bike handles,......


Well, once you have got the head angle and fork offset fixed, that fixes the trail. So handling is altered by
load
handgrip position (but only big changes)
Front tyre type and pressure.

Got any more?

How many do you want?
By the time you've run through the variations of your list it amounts to lots in my book. Though I would also add rider position though you could count that as a variation of load.


That'll be 3 then?

As Brucey says about the handling, you could check the manufacturer's geometry for that bike, that year....if you can find it, and if you can believe its right.
Or, you could just try riding the bike "on the tops" and note how the steering feels
starting off
up a hill steep enough to run out of gears
down a steep bendy hill
in a crosswind
in traffic
....or bung on some straight bars and do the same

there is more myth and superstition than enough surrounding bike handling.
Last edited by 531colin on 29 Jul 2017, 7:42am, edited 1 time in total.
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