What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

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landsurfer
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby landsurfer » 16 Aug 2017, 3:27pm

John_S wrote: However maybe I'm just a bit of a luddite who doesn't move with the times.John


I used to be a Luddite .... and i still am ..... nothing new there then :lol:
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The Road Goes On Forever

Tangled Metal
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Tangled Metal » 16 Aug 2017, 3:31pm

Interesting thread. To summarize feelings on this it seems people have polarized views. Those who use them like what they offer as another alternative. Those who aren't impressed find fault in them even if the fault really isn't there.

I've never thought about using tubeless purely because of cost. I've never had problems with tubes and tyres. I rarely puncture. I got one puncture on the way into work but I was close enough to walk home and take the car only to/ lose 15 minutes. In the same period I got a slow puncture that only became apparent when I went into the shed to get my lad's balance bike out. I wasn't riding myself so I fixed it before it was needed. I had one more puncture before that. Three punctures in 2 years got me worried so I went a year riding marathon plus tyres. Switched to vittoria hypers. Almost a year without punctures on them plus a year on the pluses.

I once went 7 years without a puncture. I really don't know how I don't get punctures. So IMHO there's no problem to be fixed by tubeless. BTW I don't really notice much difference between tyres, I'm not very discerning.

With all this in mind I am not the target customer for tubeless. However I do not think.there is anything wrong with it as a technology. I'm not going to dismiss it without trying it neither. How on earth can you judge something without trying it with an open mind? By trying it I mean giving it a real trial in an application where it could be useful.

So I find this thread interesting for the information tubeless tyre users have given. The naysayers IMHO are the usual suspects I've had issue with before over their fixed opinions. It's their way only. That's fair enough because it's a technology you don't have to use. I don't plan on using electronic shifting. I don't rubbish it because it's not for me. Tubeless tyres are a technology that has a valid purpose, not just marketing hype, that you either appreciate or you don't. If not then don't buy into it. Your choice.

landsurfer
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby landsurfer » 16 Aug 2017, 5:00pm

Tangled Metal wrote:So I find this thread interesting for the information tubeless tyre users have given. The naysayers IMHO are the usual suspects I've had issue with before over their fixed opinions. It's their way only. That's fair enough because it's a technology you don't have to use. I don't plan on using electronic shifting. I don't rubbish it because it's not for me. Tubeless tyres are a technology that has a valid purpose, not just marketing hype, that you either appreciate or you don't. If not then don't buy into it. Your choice.


Good point, well made.
I suspect that i may be one of the " naysayers" mentioned.
For me it's not about shunning new technology, it's about societies need for the new shiney thing.
I'm involved in marketing i must admit, and the need to find a USP, Unique Selling Point, for the most mundane items consumes huge budgets and time at some companies.
Apple are a prime example.... if Apple brought out an electric car would you dare buy one knowing in 6 months it will be superseded and in 12 months unsupported? Extreme example i know.
Technology purely for technology sake is a curse of modern society, i think.
Electronic gears, tubeless tyres, nitrogen filled carbon frames to detect cracks all of these work, but do we actually need them.
We want them, marketing departments make sure we do ....
Or is it only the USP that will attract high disposable income cyclists.

Good old Ned ..... :lol:
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The Road Goes On Forever

Brucey
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2017, 9:46pm

I thought the comment someone made upthread (and I paraphrase) about 'being able to make it work with some effort' wasn't far off the truth at the moment, for the road, anyway. There are some combinations of tyre and rim that work OK and others that are not so good.

It is early days yet. Whether 'it is worth it' right now is a matter of personal perspective.

cheers
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aljohn
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby aljohn » 18 Aug 2017, 4:12pm

Reading the posts on tubeless tyres to my wife , she pointed out that SKY re invented the wheel years ago by making really round wheels....I think she has a point.....

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Gattonero
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Gattonero » 19 Aug 2017, 9:21am

aljohn wrote:Reading the posts on tubeless tyres to my wife , she pointed out that SKY re invented the wheel years ago by making really round wheels....I think she has a point.....


it ought to be the reason why track tubulars were glued with Shellac since many decades ago... :wink:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Smut Pedaller
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Smut Pedaller » 25 Aug 2017, 12:55pm

I gave tubeless a go not long ago when I was building up my gravel bike, using Maxxis Ramblers these are 40mm 120tpi lightweight tyres. I used Orange Seal and was able to seat them with a bit of soapy water and a normal track pump. Bit more info here... http://smutpedaller.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/maxxis-rambler-gravel-tyre-review.html Since then I have setup Schwalbe G-Ones and Bruce Gordon Rock n roads, these are all 40mm wide gravel tyres so I don't really have experience with high pressure (70+psi) road tyres. These were setup on BOR XMD366 rims which are tubeless ready MTB rims, I used 2x layers of tubeless tape.

Ride quality:
In any case, what I appreciated most was the ability to run really low pressures for compliance without fearing pinch flats (I went down to about 27psi on the front FYI I weigh about 68kg), also the ride quality was far far superior... it just feels a lot more damped and supple, the bike gets bounced around a lot less over ruts and rocks. I have actually tested Schwalbe G-One tyres with and without a tube and the difference is pretty significant. Just the suppleness and ride quality was so much better than almost every tubed tyre I've used, in particular better than the delicate Challenge Strada Biancas I had before. Also the rolling resistance was noticeably less.

Punctures:
In total I've only ever had two occasions where I needed to stick a tube in, that is in the past year riding mostly off-road in rocky/flinty type terrain in the south-east and Wales. First time it was coming down the rocky descent of mt Snowdon on 45mm Rock n road tyres, small cut in the sidewall near the bead and sealant didn't work because of where it was. I stuck a tube in and was away in about 2 min. Second time it was with the Maxxis Ramblers on road, it was a very slow leak and it was because the sealant dried out because I failed to check it in the past few months... Other than that all punctures have sealed themselves and just needed a slight top-up of air.

Setup:
Initially the Ramblers seated extremely easily with a bit of elbow grease on the track pump, ditto with the Rock n roads. The Schwalbe G-Ones were a bit more difficult and required a CO2 cartridge. However as the tyres aged it became impossible to reseat them with the track pump/soapy water when I was swapping them around wheels. I had to buy one of those tubeless tanks which basically solved the problem, I think over time they get a bit stickier and don't tend to seat so easily. This was a bit frustrating but really just required the correct tool.

Conclusion:
Despite having some frustration with the setup occasionally, like the tape not sealing well and tyres not seating, it just took a bit of experience, soapy water, patience and the correct tool. On my gravel bike, I don't think I'd ever go back to tubes. In my opinion what I love about tubeless is the ability to run supple lightweight tyres which give great ride quality and low rolling resistance but also not really have to worry about flats so much. I have never found any tubed setup which has both these characteristics. In any case, there are some compromises with tubeless however in my case I've found the advantages outweigh any disadvantages by quite a bit. I think those of you who are cynical about it should just give it a go first before you pass judgement.
smutpedaller.blogspot.com

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willcee
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby willcee » 25 Aug 2017, 4:40pm

Just monday past I was called on by a guy I help out who runs a touring company with global visitors either hiring machines from him or cycling their own..one was in diffs, had a flat just 3 miles from me and the experienced vet hard Aussie cyclist who was the team leader couldn't get the tyre/ tube off.. the bike.. a Trek Emonda aero top of the pile model duraace di2, frame fit brakes with fancy carbon 30mm rimmed wheels tubeless ready type..10k+ worth and less than a month on the road.. The owner, a decent chap, was standing in his Rapha kit, forlorn, the other 3 had continued on their ride, 3 inches of the tyre off the rim and 2 broken levers on the road.. i had the tyre off in a minute, stuck a tube in, the tyres were not T/L, basic Michelin Lithium 2's, on inflation the tube i used went porous at 100 psi and i hustled him and the Trek into my estate and drove home to my workshop..the issue was the tubeless ready wheels, i took no notice of the make, but the nylon or plastic former which acted as a seal for the spokes wouldn't let this normal tyre move easily into a very shallow centre well.. i removed the tyre and tube checked for sharps and had him hold the tyre while i liberally talced the inside bead to bead, the result brought a smile to his face, a new tube which he had in his kit , was fitted and the tyre went on without issues by hand alone.. i dropped him off at a local cafe where the others had arranged to meet earlier and spent a hour drinking coffee and talking about bikes.. he presented a small tub of talc to his leader with a wry smile, winking at me..so don't try without some talc to hand..we intend to stay in touch, he lives in Paris, & he's on the lookout for a Rene Herse.. will

Brucey
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Brucey » 25 Aug 2017, 5:47pm

Smut Pedaller; unless you have tried the exact same tyres with and without tubes there is no way of knowing if it is the tyres or the tubelessness that is making a difference. That is, if it isn't in all in the mind anyway.... :wink:

cheers
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landsurfer
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby landsurfer » 25 Aug 2017, 6:19pm

Brucey wrote:Smut Pedaller; unless you have tried the exact same tyres with and without tubes there is no way of knowing if it is the tyres or the tubelessness that is making a difference. That is, if it isn't in all in the mind anyway.... :wink:

cheers


I know i get told off for this but ...
There is an amazing amount of "Emperors New Clothes" in cycle marketing .....
Rafts of gadgets and gizmos that exist only because they can.. not because we need them ......
And a "Cyclist and his money etc"........ :roll:
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Smut Pedaller
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Smut Pedaller » 26 Aug 2017, 9:02am

Brucey wrote:Smut Pedaller; unless you have tried the exact same tyres with and without tubes there is no way of knowing if it is the tyres or the tubelessness that is making a difference. That is, if it isn't in all in the mind anyway.... :wink:

cheers


Read my post again, I used the schwalbe g ones, ramblers and rock n roads with and without tubes. The difference was clear.
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Gattonero
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Gattonero » 26 Aug 2017, 9:49am

Brucey wrote:Smut Pedaller; unless you have tried the exact same tyres with and without tubes there is no way of knowing if it is the tyres or the tubelessness that is making a difference. That is, if it isn't in all in the mind anyway.... :wink:

cheers


Smut Pedaller wrote: have actually tested Schwalbe G-One tyres with and without a tube and the difference is pretty significant.


And I can confirm that on Schwalbe's One (road tyre), though on road is a different scenario with less advantages I'd say.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Brucey
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Brucey » 26 Aug 2017, 10:06am

Smut Pedaller wrote:
Brucey wrote:Smut Pedaller; unless you have tried the exact same tyres with and without tubes there is no way of knowing if it is the tyres or the tubelessness that is making a difference. That is, if it isn't in all in the mind anyway.... :wink:

cheers


Read my post again, I used the schwalbe g ones, ramblers and rock n roads with and without tubes. The difference was clear.


Sorry I worded that poorly.

Very often decent tubeless tyres already contain enough extra rubber (vs the equivalent tubed tyre) to qualify as an inner-tube's worth of extra weight. Adding an inner tube to such a tubeless tyre will (unsurprisingly) usually make for a tyre that is relatively heavy and slow; effectively you have two inner tubes....

So a fair test is to use a non-tubeless tyre with a decent tube and compare it with a tubeless tyre of the same type (assuming that the only difference is the layer of rubber inside the carcass of the tubeless tyre). A non-tubeless tyre (with any performance oriented design) will have stuff-all rubber in the sidewall, and won't be leak-tight if converted to tubeless without copious use of sealant; this may be 'better' Crr-wise than either a dedicated tubeless tyre or a non-tubeless tyre with a tube in, but may be problematic in other respects.

BTW it is also possible that tyre manufacturers are not playing straight here, and are not making truly equivalent tyres of each type. [In a similar vein one manufacturer claimed to have made the "same frame" that "was lighter with disc mounts" a couple of years ago, and some folk believed it...durr.... :roll: ]

There may be a benefit in Crr if you are running low pressures, but you won't see its true nature unless you do a fair test.

cheers
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Gattonero
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby Gattonero » 26 Aug 2017, 10:55am

Brucey wrote:...
Very often decent tubeless tyres already contain enough extra rubber (vs the equivalent tubed tyre) to qualify as an inner-tube's worth of extra weight. Adding an inner tube to such a tubeless tyre will (unsurprisingly) usually make for a tyre that is relatively heavy and slow; effectively you have two inner tubes.......


It's not only weight reduction, especially for road use, but other things to consider.
On plus sizes, the weight of an inner tube can be a real problem: think of a 29" x 3", I won't carry 600+ gr of inner tube per wheel, no thanks.
For road tyres, there is still a little weight saving, plus the self-mending of small cuts. I'd say is a personal choice, if money is not a problem :wink:

Image
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

reohn2
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Re: What is the point of Tubeless tyres ?

Postby reohn2 » 26 Aug 2017, 11:54am

Do 29er x 3in tubes weigh so much? :shock:
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