1x11?

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Si
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1x11?

Postby Si » 16 Aug 2017, 3:59pm

1x11. The latest designer fad. How pointless is that im thinking, only 11 ratios, never mansge with that...... then started thinking a little harder.

On my current 3x7 it has (counts quickly on fingers and toes...almost there) 21 combinations. But how many do i use? 1x1 to get up the insanely steep ramp off the cut. 2x1 (yes i know...naughty) 2x2, 2x3, 2x4, 2x5, 3x5, 3x6, 3x7. So that's 9. Hang on, 9 is a number that is less than 11.

So is 1x11 not giving me a low enough or high enough gear at the ends? The one i just looked at has a sprocket bigger than thr chain ring so thats lower than my current set up, and i dont really care too much about top end, afterzll i get on fine with65 inches on the fixie.

So why is 1x11 a bad idea? Is the chain goi g to wear out quicker given the angles it ends up at? Is the chain more likely to drop off the chain ring on the bumps? Does it put a noticeable in the real world amount of extra weight on the rear wheel?

Tell me why i dont want one on a new bike?

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barrym
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Re: 1x11?

Postby barrym » 16 Aug 2017, 4:06pm

Price is one reason why I wouldn't want one, especially with increased wear rate.
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gaz
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Re: 1x11?

Postby gaz » 16 Aug 2017, 4:11pm

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=116470&p=1154906&#p1154906
reohn2 wrote:1x11+ is not only limited but expensive due to chainline issues with ultra narrow chains and the need to change the whole cassette when only a few ratios are worn due to sprockets being grouped in threes or more on spiders and individual spiders not being available on their own.
In short it's a marketing ploy by the ever cynical bike trade.
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Mick F
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Mick F » 16 Aug 2017, 4:16pm

Do not go any further than a Sturmey Archer 3sp that will take any (Shimano) cassette.
You don't need 11sp, so you won't get all the downside of 11sp cassettes, but get any of the ratios you want.
Mick F. Cornwall

irc
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Re: 1x11?

Postby irc » 16 Aug 2017, 4:51pm

One of my bikes for local riding is a 1x9. It gives me the gears I need. As I don't spend much time in either the 1st or 9th cog I don't think chainline is an issue. For touring there isn't enough range though. When riding a bike with a touring load the extra range you get for the extra weight of a double or triple is well worth it.

A 1x11 to give me two gears lower than my 1x9 would actually be usable for me touring. But I'm still not convinced the weight saving outweighs reduced chain and cassette life. Or is 11 speed chain life noticeably less? I've nothing bigger than 9 speed so I've no idea.

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Re: 1x11?

Postby tim_f » 16 Aug 2017, 4:52pm

1 * 11 - is behind the times where it is at with Mountain Bikes is 1 * 12 with the biggest sprocket being cantilevered out over the spokes.

I expect SRAM will bring 1 * 12 to the road soon.

Said with a :D :lol:

Only just got a road bike with 2*11 rather than 3 * 9, and all my mountain bikes are 3 * 9 - which I am happy with.

For a mountain bike may be a wide ratio 1*12 might be better idea than 2 * 10.

For a mountain bike only ridden of road where high gears are not used i can see why the big from ring has been dropped, but where one rides to the off road trails still nice to have a high gear for when the ride to the trail turns in to a bit of fitness training session....
Last edited by tim_f on 16 Aug 2017, 5:03pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Si
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Si » 16 Aug 2017, 4:54pm

Do not go any further than a Sturmey Archer 3sp that will take any (Shimano) cassette.


I've got/had SA/sram 3x7 or 3x8 'dual drive' type hubs on several bikes....I don't get on with them. Dunno if it's all in my head but they always feel very draggy.

Brucey
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2017, 5:02pm

Si wrote:1x11. The latest designer fad. How pointless is that im thinking, only 11 ratios, never mansge with that...... then started thinking a little harder.

On my current 3x7 it has (counts quickly on fingers and toes...almost there) 21 combinations. But how many do i use? 1x1 to get up the insanely steep ramp off the cut. 2x1 (yes i know...naughty) 2x2, 2x3, 2x4, 2x5, 3x5, 3x6, 3x7. So that's 9. Hang on, 9 is a number that is less than 11.


you don't appear to be doing any double-shifts, i.e. you are relying on the chainring interval not being too large. Needless to say not every system is set up this way. Years ago there was a system that controlled a standard set shimano 3x7 gears from a single twistgrip, including double shifts. This gave something like 13 gears with more or less uniform steps provided you had the right chainrings and cassette.

So is 1x11 not giving me a low enough or high enough gear at the ends? The one i just looked at has a sprocket bigger than thr chain ring so thats lower than my current set up, and i dont really care too much about top end, afterzll i get on fine with65 inches on the fixie.

So why is 1x11 a bad idea? Is the chain goi g to wear out quicker given the angles it ends up at? Is the chain more likely to drop off the chain ring on the bumps? Does it put a noticeable in the real world amount of extra weight on the rear wheel?

Tell me why i dont want one on a new bike?


because

a) it'll wear relatively quickly
b) chains, mechs and cassettes are expensive
c) chainlines are worse than those you might choose to use on a double or a triple setup
d) avoiding front unshipping requires some careful selection of parts
e) there isn't much choice in cassettes; it is 11T to 'something large' whether you like it or not.
f) the wheel is very heavily dished for the number and range of gears you get.
g) the chances are that you will be running on a rather small sprocket at around 65", which will be inefficient and wear out quickly.


on the plus side

h) the cassettes are not as heavy as you might expect
i) there is only one shifter, mech, chainring to worry about
j) you can have a useful chainguard more easily than with a double or triple chainset

Given that a front mech is something that will normally outlast the bike, I don't think eliminating it is a big advantage, maintenance-wise, and, er, it keeps the chain on, in a very simple fashion.... Arguably a clumsily chosen 2x6 (or even 3x5....) system will give more useful gears, as close together, harder wearing, with cheaper consumables and (at any given OLN) a stronger wheel.

So much for 'progress'..... :wink:

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Mick F » 16 Aug 2017, 5:04pm

Si wrote:
Do not go any further than a Sturmey Archer 3sp that will take any (Shimano) cassette.
I've got/had SA/sram 3x7 or 3x8 'dual drive' type hubs on several bikes....I don't get on with them. Dunno if it's all in my head but they always feel very draggy.
I get that.

Having done roll-out tests with my Moulton as it was (Shimano 10sp) versus Mercian with Campag 10sp and narrow HP tyres, the difference wasn't a great deal and became less as I fitted decent tyres to the Moulton.

Later, I fitted a SA hub to the same drivetrain, and although the bike became heavier, the rollout was the same.
Yes, it feels draggy, but it actually isn't IME.

The back-pedal feels draggy, I agree, but the freewheel doesn't seem to be.
Mick F. Cornwall

landsurfer
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Re: 1x11?

Postby landsurfer » 16 Aug 2017, 5:06pm

1 X 9 in my case ..... works fine for me ...... Although i have swapped the 38 front ring for a 36 to cope with the coast road around Redruth / Camborne / Hayle this week ..... :)
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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Erudin
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Erudin » 16 Aug 2017, 5:09pm

YouTube Link: 4 BIG PROBLEMS Of 1x10, 1x11, 1x12 Drivetrains. 1 By Drivetrain - THE TRUTH. Part 1.

irc wrote:The video is 15m long. Can you summarise what the conclusion is?


1. Chain-line compromised.
2. Power loss due to extra friction.
3. Lack of gears for optimal cadence, run out out gears at high/low speed.
4. Parts wear quicker.

Part 2 covers Sram XX1 Eagle Drivetrain 1x12 (10t to 50t), which he says works well but still does not allow optimum cadence.
Last edited by Erudin on 16 Aug 2017, 9:58pm, edited 6 times in total.

blackbike
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Re: 1x11?

Postby blackbike » 16 Aug 2017, 5:49pm

Wear doesn't matter much if you are racing. Speed and lightness are what it is about.

A few XC racers I know all use 1 x 10 or 1 x 11 now.

I keep a triple chainring on my old MTB 1990s MTB because a 22/32 combination of front and rear sprockets is lower gearing than the 32/42 lowest gear on most single chainring modern MTBs, and I need the lower gears nowadays, especially off road.

But in the early to mid 90s when I was racing I never used the very lowest or the very highest gears on my MTB so a a modern single chainset would have been better, lighter and less complicated.

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Re: 1x11?

Postby irc » 16 Aug 2017, 6:49pm



The video is 15m long. Can you summarise what the conclusion is?

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Si
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Re: 1x11?

Postby Si » 16 Aug 2017, 7:02pm

irc wrote:


The video is 15m long. Can you summarise what the conclusion is?


changes gear when back pedalling in lowest gear

More friction due to extreme chain lines..(.although he doesnt say how much.)

Reduction of gear range ( mostly an issue for mtbs ?)


And iirc , bigger jumps between ratios.....but i could have imagined that one

irc
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Re: 1x11?

Postby irc » 16 Aug 2017, 7:43pm

Si wrote:
irc wrote:


The video is 15m long. Can you summarise what the conclusion is?


changes gear when back pedalling in lowest gear

More friction due to extreme chain lines..(.although he doesnt say how much.)

Reduction of gear range ( mostly an issue for mtbs ?)


And iirc , bigger jumps between ratios.....but i could have imagined that one


Thanks Si. I could imagine extreme chain lines causing wear on tour when grinding uphill in lowest gear for miles. With a triple there will be a less extreme angle both because of the position of the inner ring and the fact a greater range means bottom gear will be required less. And a wider 9 speed chain to cope with what wear there is.

Not sure wider ratios would be an issue for me. Running 11-32 11-34, or custom 12-34 cassetes I have fair sized gaps already. I'd want an 11 speed cassette to be additional range like the Shimano 11 speed which would add 2 lower gears to my 11-32.

11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... prod135828

I presume going 11 speed would need new hubs as well?