1x11?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
gloomyandy
Posts: 1040
Joined: 16 Mar 2012, 10:46pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby gloomyandy » 16 Aug 2017, 8:08pm

My winter/touring bike has in effect two 1x10 setups. What I mean is that it has a front shifter but I very, very rarely use it. When I'm riding it as a winter bike on club runs I only use the big ring (42 tooth) and when using it as touring bike I pretty much only use the small ring (26 tooth). I happily use all ten gears on the 11-36 rear cassette. Back peddling works in all my gears. I've not noticed big problems with chain wear (I get around 3000 miles from one without an excessive regime of chain cleaning), so far I see no evidence of either the cassette or chain rings being worn (I've done just over 10,000 miles on this bike). I'm pretty sure the chain line I use is worse than that of a 1x system, so I'm not convinced that wear is really that excessive. So I'd happily ride a 1x10 system.

As to advantages I'd add that not having to change the front ring is nice, the only time I've ever had the chain come off any bike has been when making front ring changes. Even with modern gears changing the front ring under any sort of load can be tricky, but most will happily change at the rear (well mine do anyway).

I will confess that I have swapped front rings from time to time when on tour (to use the big ring), but I really didn't have to. Similarly on one club run I used the small ring to make it easier to get up a local 25% hill (mainly just because I could, it was fun to spin up it when my club mates were all out the saddle)!

Richard Fairhurst
Posts: 1412
Joined: 2 Mar 2008, 4:57pm
Location: Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Re: 1x11?

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 16 Aug 2017, 8:35pm

I have 1x9 on my Bike Friday New World Tourist (with 56T up front). It's plenty adequate for light touring (one pannier plus handlebar bag) and the reduced complexity is particularly welcome for a folder which inevitably gets knocked when folding for train/car/plane - one less thing to go wrong. I honestly don't think I've ever found myself really wanting a greater range on it, even despite tackling some beefy climbs in the Catskills and Black Forest. I will admit to getting off and pushing on the Long Mynd once though.

(I have 1x(Alfine)11 on our Circe Morpheus, too, but wouldn't pretend that wonderful curio is a precedent for anything else. ;) )
cycle.travel - maps, journey-planner, route guides and city guides

mattsccm
Posts: 2730
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby mattsccm » 16 Aug 2017, 8:38pm

I have doubts. Its punted as being more simple and reliable. Hmmm . Possibly the simplest moving part of a bike s the front mech. If nothing else they keep the chain on. Single chainring mtbers often use a chain catcher instead. Why? To get a wide gear range you need an 11 - something like 42 cassette. This means a dirty long rear mech which is therefore more vunerable. There are gaps between ratios. Horrible if you are used to 1 tooth steps but the younger mtbers don't remember that. Brought up on a 13-17 block I do.
In some situation a single chainring is fine. CX, proper racing that is, works well as does time trialling.
The extremes if chain line isn't as bad ( I accept that only one sprocket is ideal) as it used to be. An 11 speed cassette isn't twice as wide ad 5 speeds and modern narrow chains cope much better with poor lines.
Price. Hmm . is it relevant? Each to their own poison.

Brucey
Posts: 35936
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2017, 8:49pm

irc wrote:
Si wrote:
More friction due to extreme chain lines..(.although he doesnt say how much.)

I presume going 11 speed would need new hubs as well?


re friction on extreme chainlines; published tests of a 3x9 system suggest that the additional friction of running cross-chained is comparable with the inefficiency of running with smaller-sized sprockets; i.e. to a first approximation, when you measure the efficiency of the various gears on the big ring, the plot is a roughly straight line, from the gear that has a 'perfect chainline' downwards.

IIRC 11s MTB cassettes (in the shimano pattern) should fit onto an 8/9/10s freehub body. By contrast 11s road cassettes require a longer freehub body, because the smaller (road) bottom sprocket cannot safely overhang the spokes so much, not without there being a clash.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hjd10
Posts: 227
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: 1x11?

Postby hjd10 » 16 Aug 2017, 10:05pm

I presume going 11 speed would need new hubs as well?


Not necessarily, I had a 9 speed setup and the 11 speed cassette fitted no problem at all. There are differences with the SRAM setup though. The lower spec SRAM NX has a 11-42 cassette which essentially doesn't require any hub change to fit on a normal hub however the 10-42 requires something called an XD Driver (different freehub to allow the smaller 10 tooth cog).

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/sram-xd-driver-body-explained-44409/

irc
Posts: 4565
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: 1x11?

Postby irc » 16 Aug 2017, 10:47pm

Brucey wrote:IIRC 11s MTB cassettes (in the shimano pattern) should fit onto an 8/9/10s freehub body. By contrast 11s road cassettes require a longer freehub body, because the smaller (road) bottom sprocket cannot safely overhang the spokes so much, not without there being a clash.

cheers


Would that include a Shimano 9 speed road hub IE 130 OLN? My 1x9 bike has a Tiagra rear hub from the 9 speed era.

Brucey
Posts: 35936
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby Brucey » 16 Aug 2017, 11:13pm

yes but the bracing angle of the spokes is different from an MTB 135mm OLN hub, and that may cause the clearance to be unacceptably small between the spokes and rear mech with the smaller MTB type cassettes. The cassette ought to go onto the freehub body though.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
Posts: 36359
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2017, 11:29pm

The pluses for 3x9sp drivetrain compared with a 1x11 =
More gears,closer ratios(if required)and better chainline(particularly in the most used gears)
Cheaper cassettes and if you're prepared to split two cassettes to make one up,a better selection of personalised ratios are offered than standard cassettes.
Stronger chain.
Longer lasting and far cheaper replacement parts(chain,cassette and chainrings).
Stronger wheel
Far more versatile drivetrain particularly when climbing.

The pluses for a 1x11 drivetrain = one gear lever/ shifter.

I find the 3x9sp d/ train,the perfect d/train and other than the big/big or small/small combinations provides 25 useable gears and if any duplicate gears are chosen carefully they can actually provide useful gears in the right place,especially when climbing.
Gaz quotes upthread a previous post of mine which mentions why I think the 1x11 is frankly,extracting the piddle and a cynical ploy of the cycle trade.
Anyone who can't handle three chainrings with a 9sp cassette only needs some practice to get the beauty and elegance of their bike's ultimate 3x9 drivetrain into their minds as to why they could ever possibly need anything more.
TBH a 1x10sp+ is a dead end street and a retrograde step in bicycle gearing systems,unless a high or low set of gears are required,but even then as yet there's only ultra wide cassettes available,which will only ever suit a particular section of (MTB)cyclists.
My 2d's worth.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
Redvee
Posts: 2178
Joined: 8 Mar 2010, 8:58pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby Redvee » 17 Aug 2017, 1:52am

I ran 1x8 on a MTB nearly 20 years ago so this isn't new to me and my commute bike is 1x10 with 5700 STI units and a Race Face narrow/wide chainring. Both shifters function perfectly but I've 'locked' the LH unit by threading a gear cable through as usual but then threading it through a 5amp connector block and screwing the screws down tight.

tim_f
Posts: 245
Joined: 12 Oct 2009, 10:37pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby tim_f » 17 Aug 2017, 7:42am

Brucey wrote:
IIRC 11s MTB cassettes (in the shimano pattern) should fit onto an 8/9/10s freehub body. By contrast 11s road cassettes require a longer freehub body, because the smaller (road) bottom sprocket cannot safely overhang the spokes so much, not without there being a clash.

cheers

Would that include a Shimano 9 speed road hub IE 130 OLN? My 1x9 bike has a Tiagra rear hub from the 9 speed era.


Shimano have just announced a new 11 speed 11-34 cassette that fits both their road and mtb hubs - it comes with a spacer to be fitted when used on a road hub. May be that would fit on their pre 11 speed era road hubs - but would depend on spoke angle I guess.

(They have also announced a new rear mech designed to work with this cassette and new front mech more tolerant of cross chaining - but I wish they had brought back the triple chain-set)

Brucey
Posts: 35936
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby Brucey » 17 Aug 2017, 8:29am

an extant 11-34 MTB cassette will of course fit a 'road' 11s freehub body (with a spacer) but that is not to say that won't be a clearance issue with the rear mech and spokes on an 8/9/10s/130mm rear hub, even though it will fit onto the freehub body.

Regarding rear mech, there are plenty of rear mechs that folk have been using eg RD-5800-GS-L (11s 'road') and in practice they usually seem to work OK with a 34T rear sprocket (even though they are rated for 32T max).

So possibly it is a rebranding exercise as much as anything else...? Even if so it might help people to more easily buy a 'matched set' as it were...

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

le.voyageur
Posts: 63
Joined: 10 Jan 2017, 8:30am

Re: 1x11?

Postby le.voyageur » 17 Aug 2017, 9:13am

Redvee, can I ask why you "locked" the left hand shifter?

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 4536
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: 1x11?

Postby RickH » 17 Aug 2017, 10:31am

I started using a 1x11 setup about 6 months/1000 miles ago as it came with a new bike (Kona Sutra Ltd 2016 model, greatly reduced ££). So far I've been generally very pleased with it.

My previous 3x10 (26/39/50 F 13-29R) Campag equipped bike had 17 unique gears (plus the others that were, to a close approximation duplicates). The Kona has 11 gears (36F 10-42R SRAM Rival 1) that are spread over the equivalent of 16 of those gears (I've lost the, seldom used, >100inch gear). Nominally the Kona has a slightly lower 1st ratio, but that is pretty much raised to the same by the bigger tyres( 40s v 28s). Simplicity is in use - you want a higher gear change up until you spin out in top gear, you want a lower gear you change down until you get to get to "Oh b***er I've no lower gear!" & grind on or get off & walk). No having to think (OK it didn't require too much thinking) if you are in the right chainring, but no finding you'd run out of changes unexpectedly because you weren't on the chainring you thought you were (most commonly big-big or small-small). No double shifts (small to medium chainring shift needed a change of 2-3 gears on the rear).

I've not had a single incident of chain unshipping, either on or off road, and no chain slap (I only recall one slight chain hitting chainstay noise when I hit a pothole). Narrow-wide chainring & clutch rear mech presumably contribute to things but how much contribution there is from each I've no idea, all I can say is that it works.

Longevity, wear rates & expense are factors yet to be determined. I'm happy with it so far but if any of those become too onerous then I wouldn't hesitate in switching to something different...

...12 speed perhaps! :twisted: :?

User avatar
Redvee
Posts: 2178
Joined: 8 Mar 2010, 8:58pm

Re: 1x11?

Postby Redvee » 18 Aug 2017, 1:40am

le.voyageur wrote:Redvee, can I ask why you "locked" the left hand shifter?


I don't want the main shift lever moving when I pull the brake, unlikely I know but it it a simple solution and easily removed when I need to.

User avatar
Gattonero
Posts: 3607
Joined: 31 Jan 2016, 1:35pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1x11?

Postby Gattonero » 19 Aug 2017, 9:44am

Si wrote:1x11. The latest designer fad. How pointless is that im thinking, only 11 ratios, never mansge with that...... then started thinking a little harder....

So why is 1x11 a bad idea? Is the chain goi g to wear out quicker given the angles it ends up at? Is the chain more likely to drop off the chain ring on the bumps? Does it put a noticeable in the real world amount of extra weight on the rear wheel?

Tell me why i dont want one on a new bike?


Guess what?
Depends on the situations, a 1x11 setup may actually be a very good idea.

Surely, not for touring very long distances, but the average rider can certainly appreciate the simplicity in use and no overlapped gears.
The front chainring is shaped so that the chain does not drop, the rear cassettes have the largest sprockets made of alluminium so they're not heavy, and there is less weight because there is no FD or Lh shifter.

FWIW, I'm still ok with a double setup on road and Mtb bikes.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...