Campag 11 speed hub problem

[grazie]

As I understand it, the latest Campag hub spec. supports 9, 10 and 11 speed cassettes. A wheel I have has an Ambrossia Zenith, which is absolutely fine with 10 speed, but when I fit when an 11 speed, it rubs against the frame. I'm stumped. Any ideas?

[Brucey]

just because a campag hub will accept an 11s cassette doesn't meant to say that

a) an Ambrosio hub will
and
b) that said wheel will go into any frame

clearance between the top cog and the frame varies slightly with the hub and the frame. Looks like you drew a short straw. You may be able to add some spacers to the hub to help matters.

BTW this sort of thing has been going on at least since folk were upgrading from 6s to 7s.... and it probably went on before that when folk were going from a 3s freewheel to a 4s one... sometimes I think there really is nothing new under the sun...

cheers

[grazie]

Thanks for your very swift reply, Brucey. It's all new to me, so I guess I've been lucky, I'll experiment with spacers on the hub axle, then re-centre the rim of course, if that works out.

Any suggestions on where to get suitable spacers, if I need an extra one? Is there a minimum safe clearance between the cassette lockring and the frame that people work to?

[Brucey]

the exact spacer you need will vary with the hub. It is best if the spacer is put between the freewheel bearing and the final part of the axle assy, if my recollection of how an Ambrosio hub is constructed is correct.

If the lockring clears the frame at all then you will probably be OK but I would suggest at least 0.5mm clearance would be advisable.

cheers

[grazie]

What you say about manufacturers not being fully Campag compatible. surprises me though. I'm sure if Shimano's rival manufacturers weren't fully compatible with Shimano kit, there'd be a riot. I can see that in the early days of moving up from 6 speed, standards were a bit new and vague, so things were a little hit and miss. Wouldn't have thought the same applied now.

Incidentally, I was trying to put a Miche cassette on the Ambrosio Zenith, so perhaps I was just asking for trouble? However, the Miche cassette on a Campag hub, is absolutely fine.

[mig]

As I understand it, the latest Campag hub spec. supports 9, 10 and 11 speed cassettes. A wheel I have has an Ambrossia Zenith, which is absolutely fine with 10 speed, but when I fit when an 11 speed, it rubs against the frame. I'm stumped. Any ideas?

yer -read the "downgrading with age" thread

(hope you get your wheel sorted though!)

[Gattonero]

As I understand it, the latest Campag hub spec. supports 9, 10 and 11 speed cassettes. A wheel I have has an Ambrossia Zenith, which is absolutely fine with 10 speed, but when I fit when an 11 speed, it rubs against the frame. I'm stumped. Any ideas?

Are you using the 11sp lockring? The 9/10sp ones are thicker and may not clear with the Rh dropout of the frame..

That hub has cartridge bearings, so you cannot easily respace it.
IIRC, the axle end-caps are press-fit so you may find a suitable washer to sit between the freehub bearing the and RH axle end-cap, but this gives you a few problems:
the end-cap won't fit as before so is likely to wobble and get deformed
the contact with the bearing may go to the seals or outer race instead of the inner race
the increased gap leaves room for elements to leak, etc.

I've fitted many times Campag 11sp cassettes on those hubs, I would advise to check the frame and the cassette for being correctly fitted, especially the spacers and the last cog.

[grazie]

Thanks for the further info Gattonero, but you've left me feeling rather confused and sad.

The hub (whole wheel) is new, as is the Miche cassette. The lockring is the one supplied with the cassette and as you say, it's noticeably slimmer than the 10 speed variety. I made many many inquiries as to what went wrong where with this wheel, but got absolutely nowhere. The original supplier was bloody awful. I should have gone to the small claims court, but it really wasn't worth the hassle. The best explanation I've had previously is that the hub is a dud, possibly due to use of incorrect spacers/caps or incorrect spacer placement during manufacture. After what you've stated, this is seeming quite likely.

Doesn't look like fiddling with the hub is a viable option, unless the LH and RH spacers/caps have been mixed up or something similar. Also, as the wheel was intended for a carbon frame, springing the fork dropouts to accommodate an extra spacer is out. Plus I know the Miche cassette is good and correctly spaced as it fits both Campag and Mavic hubs with adequate clearance.

I suppose that just leaves me with getting a replacement hub and rebuilding the wheel. But what to get? The obvious choice would be another Ambriosio Zenith, but how can I be sure that a replacement will be OK? If I get something else, I'd want to re-use the spokes and to match it with the front hub. Another option of course, would to be use the wheel as 10 speed only, but that leaves me with surplus and expensive 11 speed kit.

I guess worse things happen at sea.

[Gattonero]

Let's start to see the facts: can you measure how much the Rh axle end-cap does protrude from the freehub? It all sounds to me that once the cassette is fitted, this cap if just flush with the cassette lockring when it should be about 2mm above it.
Since you are there, the average span of a set of verniers should be enough to measure the OLD of the hub, I bet we won't see 130mm but a difference well over 1mm

[grazie]

Like you've said, the drive side axle cap doesn't protrude at all on the Ambrosio hub. The cap is flush with the cassette lockring or the gap is so small it can't be measured. We're talking a feeler gauge order of gap, if any.

Not sure what you mean by OLD hub or where you're getting "130mm but a difference well over 1mm" from.

I tried two other Campag compatible rear wheels with the Miche cassette, to prove the cassette was fine. One with a Campag hub and another set with a Mavic hub. Putting the Miche 11 speed on these gives a gap clearance that'll work. I didn't measure it, but again like you say, it was about 2mm. Then, if I put either the Campag or Mavic wheel with Miche cassette into a frame, there's no rubbing,

Please correct me where I'm not catching your drift

[Brucey]

. The best explanation I've had previously is that the hub is a dud, possibly due to use of incorrect spacers/caps or incorrect spacer placement during manufacture. ...

It might be, but it might be an unfortunate combination of parts that work OK in other combinations. It might be that a Miche cassette is slightly wider than other 11s cassettes (*) and that the Ambrosio hub is slightly narrower on the RHS than some other hubs. So the hub might take a campag cassette OK and the cassette will work OK on a genuine campag hub but the combination you have won't work.

Remember that there is not a published standard to adhere to; manufacturers have to (basically) guess the dimensions and tolerances that others are working to. In buying two parts that are 'campag compatible' from different manufacturers you have very much more than doubled your chances that the parts won't fit and work correctly, even if each one will work OK with a genuine campag part.

(*) re cassette widths/spacing. When 11s was new folk hoped that all 11s cassettes would have the exact same spacing and would interchange OK.

Some hope.

Reported sprocket pitches are between 3.72mm and 3.90mm. Probably there are variations beyond that. Needless to say there are ten spacers and if each one varies by 0.18mm the difference is (in total) 1.8mm in the cassette width, plus a possible additional error if the dishing in the #1 sprocket is different. The indexing might still work (the maximum index error is 4 x 0.18 = 0.72mm) but the cassette might be too long to fit on some hubs properly.

BTW if the pitch is between 3.85mm (campag road) and 3.9mm (shimano/SRAM MTB) the 11s cassette will probably work OK (in clean conditions) if a shimano-compatible 10s chain is used.

cheers

[philvantwo]

A couple of photos might be useful?

[grazie]

Still a bit confused about lack of interchangeability of supposedly compatible components, as I can't be the first person to put a Miche 11 speed cassette on an Ambrosio Zenith hub.

I got the Ambrosio hubs because I've had them before (Shimano variant) and liked them. I did consider Miche hubs, but I didn't like them.
I got the Miche Primato cassette because it was half price of the Campag Chorus and I've used 10 speed ones without problems. If it didn't turn out to be great, I planned to get a Chorus one after wearing out the Miche or sooner if it wasn't smooth. I'm not prepared to buy a Campag cassette on the off chance it might work (I'm not convinced at all). To me, everything still points towards the hub as the main problem, although I'll accept that if the Miche is slightly wide and the Ambrosio axle and/or freehub is 'different', I've got a combination that won't work. As far as I can recall, only Compag and Miche do Campag compatible cassettes. If there's someone out there that's got a genuine Campag 11 speed cassette 'on the shelf' that would let me try it on my Ambrosio hub, I'd be very grateful (I'm near Canterbury).

My knowledge of sprocket pitches is zero, so I guess I need to read up on that, but are you saying that if I can somehow skim the cassette spacers, I may have a solution? Campag spacers are very simple, unlike the Shimano/SRAM ones I've seen. Basically they're just large plastic washers. Also, I don't follow the 10 speed Shimano chain logic. Are you just saying tolerances could mean you can get away with using a 10 speed chain on an 11 speed set up under circumstances? Surely, if I'm going to consider decreasing the cassette spacing I'll need as narrow a chain as possible?

I've just spotted this recent negative comment on Chain Reaction. Doesn't say which hub though. All other comments are positive

Not really Compatable with Campagnolo Chorus!
25 May 2017
Interests:Road - Commuter, Road - Racer, Road - Fitness/Recreation


I bought this hoping to save a few bucks and it was a mistake. I had an authorized Campagnolo bike shop try to install with my new record chain and crank. They had a tough time getting the cassette on and once installed it shifted terrible. Do not buy this cassette, buy Campagnolo. I will be returning for refund or credit

Also, the price of this Miche cassette has is being discounted since I bought mine, which could be indicative of issues with the component.

I could add a photo(s) of the drive side axle cap not protruding enough, but not sure how it adds anything?

[Brucey]

regarding reducing the sprocket pitch, it depends on whether the sprocket thickness is suitable or not. 11s sprockets are usually 1.6mm but it is possible to build a 3.9mm pitch 11s cassette with sprockets that are nearly 1.7mm thickness. If you respace such a cassette to 3.72mm (which is the pitch of shimano 11s road cassettes) then even 11s chain may not run well on it.

[ Campag 11s cassettes are usually 3.85mm pitch but the poor fit may be because the dish in the #1 sprocket is different in the Miche cassette, meaning that it won't fit well unless the pitch is reduced below that of campag 11s cassettes.]

I don't know how they have built the Miche cassette exactly but if it shifts poorly may be because the tooth shapes are not very clever or it could be that the sprockets are a non-standard thickness or something, so that it only works with certain chains (eg genuine campag ones, or ones specified by Miche).

It will almost certainly be a lot easier to respace the hub slightly to allow the Miche cassette to be used. If you have to add ~1mm to the OLN then the wheel will still go into the frame and the dish error will be so small it can be ignored.

cheers

[grazie]

It's good to hear that if I can somehow find 1mm of spacing in the axle drive side, I won't need to worry about re-dishing the wheel, although I'm sure some wheel builders wouldn't tolerate this.

I've got nowhere near to fitting a chain and testing the shifting yet.