Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

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Barry and Janet wil
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Barry and Janet wil » 26 Sep 2017, 6:59pm

Yes cycling is very expensive but I'm spending the same percentage of my wage as I did in the 1960's.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Brucey
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Brucey » 26 Sep 2017, 7:03pm

Ellieb wrote:Sorry, but I do think you are being Luddite at this point. A lot of these are potential failures...


a lot of them are real failures. I have worked in a variety of technical fields for many years and stuff goes wrong all the time, and whether it is a PITA to fix or not depends what kind of technology is being used. I have many times watched experts struggle for days or weeks to resolve what should have been a simple problem with a dodgy connection or a duff sensor or some crap software, but it is stopping a complex system from working properly.

The last thing I want is to (at vast expense) build those kind of problems into a (heavier) bicycle, all for no real benefit.

It is just one of several 'exciting new technologies' that are appearing in cycling. It is like watching a herd of stampeding white elephants pass by..... Does the phrase 'built-in obsolescence' mean anything to you....? :wink:

cheers
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Annoying Twit
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Annoying Twit » 26 Sep 2017, 7:35pm

Barry and Janet wil wrote:Yes cycling is very expensive but I'm spending the same percentage of my wage as I did in the 1960's.


Not for me it isn't expensive. There are plenty of bikes out there that are very good value.

What about this as an example? https://www.merlincycles.com/merlin-per ... gK1UfD_BwE Admittedly, only the very small size is left. But then there's something like this: https://www.rutlandcycling.com/bikes/ro ... ack_323873

But then if you go second hand, you can get something like this: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=117103 I would *so* have gone for that at £250 if I didn't have my own Verenti geared bike. (Or at least would have tried it to see if 58cm is too big for me - I ride 56cm). My Verenti Technique Claris was £340 new, but they're selling them for £420 now which is much poorer value, but still not a life changing amount for many people.

OK, there's tyres, cables, other consumables, but just for the commuting value, my bikes pay for themselves over and over.

Here we're talking about electronic gear changing etc. But, there's still no end of lower technology but still entirely usable and reasonably priced bikes out there.

EDIT: Oh, the Cannondale is no longer available. It seems to be much harder to get a bike in the medium low £300s with Claris. There's this: http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/r ... -road-bike but it's Halfords and has a steel fork, though a steel fork shouldn't make it unusable or anything. Just a bit heavier.

Brucey
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Brucey » 26 Sep 2017, 7:46pm

FWIW the Merlin PR7 is good value but it has one or two significant let-downs. The main ones for me are

- that the brake calipers are standard DPs and the Claris STIs are NSSLR type. The result is that the brakes feel very wooden to me.

- the frame has rack mounts (so is aimed at commuting, they say) but only has clearance for the skinniest tyres if mudguards are fitted. Clip-on ones are pretty much your only option.

cheers
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landsurfer
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby landsurfer » 26 Sep 2017, 7:50pm

Go to Decathlon.
Buy 500SE. (£299)
Fit Tubas "Race "rack.
BBB mudguards. https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/bbb-road ... E#pid=3788
Marathon 28mm tyres.
Ride the world ...
Well, South Yorkshire, North Notts and Lincs ...
I do ..
Last edited by landsurfer on 26 Sep 2017, 7:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
I walk through the valley .... I am the shadow ... and I have no fear: For thou art with me.

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Annoying Twit
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Annoying Twit » 26 Sep 2017, 7:55pm

Brucey wrote:FWIW the Merlin PR7 is good value but it has one or two significant let-downs. The main ones for me are

- that the brake calipers are standard DPs and the Claris STIs are NSSLR type. The result is that the brakes feel very wooden to me.

- the frame has rack mounts (so is aimed at commuting, they say) but only has clearance for the skinniest tyres if mudguards are fitted. Clip-on ones are pretty much your only option.

cheers


Well, there will be compromises due to the price. But, the bikes should still be usable. Clearly it will be possible to buy something very much better for twice the price, but that will always be the case until the bikes are costing £1000s.

landsurfer wrote:Go to Decathlon.
Buy 500SE. (£299)
Fit Tubas "Race "rack.
BBB mudguards. https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/bbb-road ... E#pid=3788
Marathon 28mm tyres.
Ride the world ...
Well, South Yorkshire, North Notts and Lincs ...
I do ..


When I bought my Verenti, it came down to the Verenti vs. the 500SE. Both seem excellent value. The 500SE is £299 now, and it was back when I was buying. Going off topic, the Mizani Swift 500 seems a very good spec for £249, but the Triban looks better to me.

Returning to the topic, the 500SE appears to be a very usable bike without excessively complicated technology, and it doesn't cost all that much. There are still options, and no-one is forced to buy a Di2 equipped bike.

EDIT: "6 of the best road bikes under £300." I note that some are tourney equipped. I must admit that I'm not convinced that Tourney parts are that bad, nor that 14 gears is too few for a general purpose road bike.
Last edited by Annoying Twit on 26 Sep 2017, 8:07pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bigjim
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby bigjim » 26 Sep 2017, 7:56pm

Steel fork can be a plus IMO, if, like me, you have reservations about the reliabilty of such an integral part of the bike being constructed of carbon. But of course that is another conversation.
Nothing left to prove.

reohn2
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2017, 8:08pm

gloomyandy wrote:But the thing is that there are lots of people that will say the same thing about electronic shifting.

For me on a TT bike the advantages of extra shift "buttons" and the ease of making adjustments to my position easily overcome the drawback of having to charge a battery, sure I'd like to spend less, but to be honest a modern TT bike setup is an expensive luxury already, and I'm prepared to indulge myself.

Racing is something I have no interest in from participation POV,so that doesn't apply to mine and the vast majority of cyclists.

For some riders the perfect shifts you get with electronics are worth paying for, as is the ease of setting the system up and adjusting it. Yes I'm sure that many on here can achieve that perfect shift with a friction shifter every time, and obviously no one here would admit to having problems setting up indexed gears, or having difficulty changing a gear cable, but judging by the clanking and clunking going on in my club rides there are lots of people that struggle to do so! Some riders like the additional flexibility of configuration, want to have the left shifter move up the gears and the right down, no problem a click of a button in the "app" and it is done, try doing that with a mechanical setup!

I very,very,rarely have problems with gear changing and find once a deraileur drivetrain is set up it's very reliable and even if I do have problems I can fix it.
This problem with conventional bowden cable systems is caused mostly from a lack of maintenance and or ignorance,the same people who don't maintain conventional systems will suffer the same problems with electronic systems,because they'll make the same mistakes.
Add to that some of the problems Brucey mentions in his posts and its a recipe for disaster.

The pressing of buttons,updating firmware and downloading apps is all very well until you're stuck by the roadside in the piddling down rain with the bike stuck in one gear and the rider unable to fix it,oh and you forgot to charge you mobile so you can't phone yer mum/dad/wife/husband to pick you up.
The same can be said for minimum spoke wheels when a spoke gives out.
The nautical term used to descripe the situation is "sailing too close to the wind" in that you fall over.


We are really only just scratching the surface of what is possible once you put software into the control loop. For instance I see no real reason why a Di2 front mech could not be programmed to operate on a triple (the ability to constantly "trim" should mean that you no longer need a specially shaped cage), so perhaps the ability to use triples with modern shifters is just a few lines of code away? Looking at the new MTB version of Di2 it seems that this may already have happened to some extent the 2x and 3x front mechs look identical to me.

Please get back to me when this system's faults are all ironed out and when I can repair it roadside,until then the cyclist is very vulnerable to the system's failure.


Is all of this stuff spoiling the purity of the experience? Perhaps, but then again maybe it is bringing the experience of having a bike that functions well, with slick quiet shifting to a wider audience..
.
But I have bikes that work well with slick quite shifting,and I'm capable stripping it down repeatedly and it working equally as good when I put it back together,there is contentment and satisfaction of knowing how to do that,there's a learining curve that once mastered is very satisfying but,it seems to me the younger the generation the less likely they are to take interest in how to maintain anything that there isn't a mobile phone app for and getting their hands dirty is 'strickly for the birds' as the old saying goes.


So for me I think that electronics on bikes is a good thing (certainly my modern LED lights are much better than the "ever ready" monsters I used to have). Is it perfect, not by a long way, is it too expensive, certainly, but I suspect that this will change over time (we are really still in "mobile phone brick era" rather than the £50 smart phone). I'm not saying that everything is moving in the right direction, don't get me started on bottom brackets or headsets. I'm sure many will not agree with me, but what would we have to talk about during a tea stop if we all agreed about everything?

To reiterate what I posted earlier in the thread,I'm not anti progress and welcome inovation that is truly progressive,electronic shifting isn't in that category for the vast number of cyclists and particularly for tourists,nor will it be until it's more reliable and can be repaired easily by the roadside by the rider.
Last edited by reohn2 on 26 Sep 2017, 8:24pm, edited 5 times in total.
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meic
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby meic » 26 Sep 2017, 8:15pm

Not for me it isn't expensive. There are plenty of bikes out there that are very good value.

A lot of them are secondhand, hardly ridden ones that are very high quality but have been abandoned to be replaced by next years model (with more gears or electronic shifting). :mrgreen:
Going at a bargain price. :D
Yma o Hyd

reohn2
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2017, 8:36pm

horizon wrote:
gloomyandy wrote:
What for me is interesting about this is that you haven't (yet) tried electronic shifting but that you have tried disk brakes (and I think you like them), but many contributors to this thread would give reasons not unlike the ones you give for not using disc brakes.



I'd go with that. I think it's very difficult to argue logically against new technology from a practical point of view - plenty of people like and enjoy disc brakes, electronic shifting and whatever. I happen to enjoy LED lights, aluminium rims and 27 gears (as opposed to 5 x 2). We are all at some point on a technological curve and everyone needs to find their own place.

However, from a philosophical point of view it gets much more interesting. If you let Brucey's ideas seep into your cycling ways, you might find that it provides a different experience (along the lines of simpler and sometimes older is better). That is not for everyone and indeed we can still pick and choose (we don't have to be hair-shirted ascetics). And it still has practical value.

I think Brucey should have argued this along the lines of "you might like this simpler way of doing things" rather than "this innovation/new product is poor and unreliable". There are many takers for his point of view (I for one) but, like I said, it isn't for everyone.

The thread has centred on electronic gearchanging stacked against conventional bowden cable shifting.
Its not 'hair shirted' to want to be self sufficient and be able to repair your bike by the roadside.
As I posted before the same applies to minimum spoke wheelsets that when a spoke breaks you wont be riding any further that day.
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Bsteel
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Bsteel » 26 Sep 2017, 8:41pm

gloomyandy wrote:We are really only just scratching the surface of what is possible once you put software into the control loop. For instance I see no real reason why a Di2 front mech could not be programmed to operate on a triple (the ability to constantly "trim" should mean that you no longer need a specially shaped cage), so perhaps the ability to use triples with modern shifters is just a few lines of code away? Looking at the new MTB version of Di2 it seems that this may already have happened to some extent the 2x and 3x front mechs look identical to me.


Also the easy option to add sequential gear changing. It's as shame that someone isn't thinking about standardisation as I can't see why one set of electronics and a standard rear mech body along with a selection of cages couldn't be designed to cover anything from 9 speed to xx speed rear cassettes for both Shimano and Campagnolo.

reohn2
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby reohn2 » 26 Sep 2017, 8:46pm

Brucey wrote:FWIW the Merlin PR7 is good value but it has one or two significant let-downs. The main ones for me are

- that the brake calipers are standard DPs and the Claris STIs are NSSLR type. The result is that the brakes feel very wooden to me.

- the frame has rack mounts (so is aimed at commuting, they say) but only has clearance for the skinniest tyres if mudguards are fitted. Clip-on ones are pretty much your only option.

cheers

And the seatube angle across the range is 74 degrees :shock:
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tatanab
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby tatanab » 26 Sep 2017, 8:51pm

Bsteel wrote:It's as shame that someone isn't thinking about standardisation as I can't see why one set of electronics and a standard rear mech body along with a selection of cages couldn't be designed to cover anything from 9 speed to xx speed rear cassettes for both Shimano and Campagnolo.
That is not going to happen. Shimano and Campag have to maintain their brand and name by not being interchangeable. If cyclists really wanted interchangeable systems we would all be riding around using Modolo Mophos "brifters" instead of Ergo and STI since these Modolo levers do it all and have been available since about 1997 - but very few people buy them. https://www.modolo.it/products/componen ... hos-lever/

Brucey
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Brucey » 26 Sep 2017, 8:58pm

reohn2 wrote:And the seatube angle across the range is 74 degrees :shock:


it is, but that isn't the end of the world in this case; the bike is also specced with a seat pin that has a fairly generous amount of setback, and a saddle that has averagely long rails.

I think that the usual gripes about steep seat angles don't apply in the usual way, because of the seat pin. It gives the saddle about the same setback as with a 73 degree seat angle and a typical seat pin.

In fact I tried to find out what seat pin is fitted, because it is not one that I remember seeing for sale separately.

cheers
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pete75
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby pete75 » 26 Sep 2017, 9:18pm

Electronic shifting - a solution in search of a problem.