Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

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Annoying Twit
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Annoying Twit » 29 Sep 2017, 10:38pm

Brucey wrote:some DT levers, bar ends, (7,8,9s) and STI-alikes, (8s and 10s)

http://www.ison-distribution.com/english/searchresults.php?group=325&brand=sunrace

I am pretty sure that they do others normally (including 10s) but have not listed them for some reason (out of stock?).

BTW these DT shifters and bar ends lack the switch that reverts back to friction mode. Even so you can see the rough cost implications of using STIs. Weirdly shimano STIs may be a bit cheaper and their DT levers and bar-ends are a bit more expensive.

cheers


STI-alikes as expensive as the Shimano originals? I presume that there's some reason to go for the Sunrace STIs rather than the Shimanos. What?

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horizon
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby horizon » 29 Sep 2017, 10:40pm

hamish wrote:Whilst I agree with much of Brucy's latest little rant


:lol: :lol: :lol:

It's good stuff though I can see why people might wish to respond to it (with a little bit of :roll: ).
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

Brucey
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Brucey » 29 Sep 2017, 11:22pm

Annoying Twit wrote: STI-alikes as expensive as the Shimano originals? I presume that there's some reason to go for the Sunrace STIs rather than the Shimanos. What?


I'm really not sure. There are a few people who resent shimano's market dominance and go out of their way to use non-shimano components, but SunRace STI-alikes are compatible with shimano mechs so maybe it wouldn't appeal to that sort of person.

I think they may be expensive here because the importer has perhaps marked them up too much; the same shifters (I think they are the same as microshift) appear on bikes (eg some Btwin models) and have usually been selected because they are cheaper than the shimano alternative.

cheers
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cycle tramp
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby cycle tramp » 30 Sep 2017, 8:12am

Ellieb wrote: I'm just not sure the perceived unrelaiblity of new vs old isn't just prejudice


I don't think so - many of the people posting on this thread have tried and tested bikes with hub, single, fixed, and all manner of derailleur gear systems. Many have bicycles some of which have small wheels, and other with large wheels and many here have experimented with different rim and disc brakes while others have experimented with drum brakes. In doing so, many have developed their bicycles to reflect the personality of the rider and duties for which the bicycle is used. Everyone who has posted here have thousands of miles of bicycle riding experience and that includes the bad and the good.
If electric gear selectors can be made robust without need of repair, then for those who are unable to keep their gear cables correctly tensioned this may be a good thing. Ideally I feel that if you race with such a system it should also be protected against electric magnetic pulse emissions, should any of the crowd feel the need to build and use electronic disruptors*

(* the tour de France has never been known for its sense of fair play, and it wouldn't surprise me if disruptors were used, despite the risk to those with pace makers)

mark a.
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby mark a. » 30 Sep 2017, 4:37pm

reohn2 wrote:IMO this post misses the point of the thread,which is to sort out which is true progress and which is smoke and mirrors.


:lol:

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horizon
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby horizon » 30 Sep 2017, 8:15pm

Something possibly relevant here from Oliver Burkeman:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... r-burkeman

Of course, his article takes the discussion off in a more philosophical direction. But that's where I feel it belongs - it's impossible to say (in my view) whether things like electronic shifting are good or bad - you have to establish your values first. I happen to agree with Brucey but I am coming to it from the point of view of simplicity and familiarity - I cannot claim to know whether one technological change is better or worse.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

Samuel D
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Samuel D » 30 Sep 2017, 9:06pm

I think it’s presently easy, and therefore tempting, to argue against new technologies on practical grounds. The new technologies do have some obvious flaws that the old stuff didn’t have (they had other flaws, but convenient and yet reasonable weighting takes care of that).

And the benefits are usually as preposterous as those of Oliver Burkeman’s wireless charging. Has any cyclist past the novice stage found it onerous to change gears in the last half-century?

However, we back ourselves into a corner by concentrating on the practical angle. It’s not inconceivable that problems with the new tech will be solved over time. And if they are, I still won’t want a black box of batteries, motors, electronics, and software changing my gears. To me, such an arrangement is complex to the point of grotesqueness on a bicycle. In contrast, my down-tube shifters are satisfying to use, work on, and contemplate.

I would add that Brucey’s reliability argument falls on deaf ears today. People just don’t care. I have seen again and again that they call a tow truck when their bicycle has a minor mechanical problem, and they do it without shame or apology. I think this is partly because the bicycle has been stripped of its social-activism significance and today occupies a less important place in culture than it did in, say, the 1890s or the 1970s. To most people it’s akin to a tennis racket. So the practical argument is doomed to mainstream irrelevance if it turns on reliability.

Annoying Twit wrote:How long until they have electrically operated brakes?

My guess is five years. And unlike electric shifting, electric braking will make possible a valuable advance: ABS braking. For the reasons discussed in these 31 pages, I still won’t want it.

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meic
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby meic » 1 Oct 2017, 12:00am

I would add that Brucey’s reliability argument falls on deaf ears today

Mostly because they are hyped up.
I have only called out "the recovery" once and that was due partly to a nicked chain sideplate and mostly because it was very late, dark and I was tired. I have had to borrow a wheel when a Shimano freehub cracked apart and I accepted a lift "home" when some spokes snapped and I had left my spares in the tent.
All of these failures were of old traditional parts of my bikes, the sort that we are the basic fare of reliable touring Deore LX hub, 8 speed chain and 36 stainless spoke wheels. not the fancy modern STIs.

Generally we are not that worried because the bikes are pretty reliable. Even the fancy ones.

I do carry a spare tyre now as a norm but that is mostly because I dont want to risk being delayed by having to deal with a damaged tyre, rather than stranded by it.
Yma o Hyd

Annoying Twit
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Annoying Twit » 1 Oct 2017, 7:33am

I certainly hear the reliability argument. As well as it being better for the consumer, reliable long-lasting equipment is better for the environment as the energy/CO2 emissions inherent to the manufacturing of the item are ameliorated over the lifetime of the equipment. However, we don't seem to have the option of purchasing long lasting items; there are only a few options on the market and for (e.g.) Shimano drive trains, the options seem to be Shimano originals or Microshift. I think I remember a thread where someone, perhaps Brucey, had dismantled a Microshift brifter and been unimpressed by what he found.

BTW: My comment on electronic brakes was a joke, although I can see someone trying it in the future. ABS is an interesting point, but the main risk of bicycle brakes seems to be grabbing too much and going over the handlebars. I'd guess that electronics could prevent that. But, unlike gears, I'd prefer to have a direct connection to the braking surface for reasons of 'feel'.

One question I have: What is it about brifters that makes them cost about twice what a brake from the same groupset costs, or about twice what a rear derailleur costs? I thought it might be because the patents on brifters are still in force, but it appears that they shouldn't be. Why aren't generic manufacturers making compatible brifters? As they do for many other things.
Last edited by Annoying Twit on 1 Oct 2017, 9:37am, edited 1 time in total.

pwa
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby pwa » 1 Oct 2017, 8:29am

Sunday, and lots of people will be out on their bikes today, braving the iffy weather. And whether they are on Pashleys or Moultons, or on fancy carbon jobs with electronic gears, they are all cyclists enjoying the wind on their faces. In a sense, whatever they are riding they are sharing something and, I think, not "losing the plot". If cycling is about the activity rather than the weapon of choice.

Even this discussion about what constitutes a good bike is a cycling tradition as old as the hills. Everything has changed but nothing has changed.

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Gattonero
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby Gattonero » 1 Oct 2017, 11:58am

pwa wrote:Sunday, and lots of people will be out on their bikes today, braving the iffy weather. And whether they are on Pashleys or Moultons, or on fancy carbon jobs with electronic gears, they are all cyclists enjoying the wind on their faces. In a sense, whatever they are riding they are sharing something and, I think, not "losing the plot". If cycling is about the activity rather than the weapon of choice.

Even this discussion about what constitutes a good bike is a cycling tradition as old as the hills. Everything has changed but nothing has changed.


I think this can wrap it up! :D
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since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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horizon
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby horizon » 1 Oct 2017, 12:14pm

Gattonero wrote:
pwa wrote:Sunday, and lots of people will be out on their bikes today, braving the iffy weather. And whether they are on Pashleys or Moultons, or on fancy carbon jobs with electronic gears, they are all cyclists enjoying the wind on their faces. In a sense, whatever they are riding they are sharing something and, I think, not "losing the plot". If cycling is about the activity rather than the weapon of choice.

Even this discussion about what constitutes a good bike is a cycling tradition as old as the hills. Everything has changed but nothing has changed.


I think this can wrap it up! :D


I agree. And I think we can take this further and add in those on electric bikes and even motorcyclists enjoying the freedom and open air. And walkers. And those on their way to church or to the supermarket even if in the car. And those who have to stay at home for whatever reason or just like to potter in the garden. After all, Sunday is there to be enjoyed and does it really matter what bike we are on or whether we are just sitting watching the telly - not everyone enjoys the rain. What matters is the sharing and indeed it is Sunday all over the world today even in Muslim countries. Do you really think that a man in a cafe near a mosque in a remote village in Indonesia having arrived by donkey is fretting over electronic gear shifting - I think not.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher

reohn2
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby reohn2 » 1 Oct 2017, 12:48pm

Gattonero wrote:
pwa wrote:Sunday, and lots of people will be out on their bikes today, braving the iffy weather. And whether they are on Pashleys or Moultons, or on fancy carbon jobs with electronic gears, they are all cyclists enjoying the wind on their faces. In a sense, whatever they are riding they are sharing something and, I think, not "losing the plot". If cycling is about the activity rather than the weapon of choice.

Even this discussion about what constitutes a good bike is a cycling tradition as old as the hills. Everything has changed but nothing has changed.


I think this can wrap it up! :D

+1 though I prefer a 31 page argument to a 2 page one :mrgreen:
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reohn2
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby reohn2 » 1 Oct 2017, 12:50pm

horizon wrote:........ Do you really think that a man in a cafe near a mosque in a remote village in Indonesia having arrived by donkey is fretting over electronic gear shifting - I think not.

No,but his donkey might :shock:
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cycle tramp
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Re: Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

Postby cycle tramp » 1 Oct 2017, 1:03pm

Ellieb wrote:
Anyway. I'm off to re-programme my bikes on board navigation system so I can commute to work tomorrow.


That sounds interesting, how long have you had it? How does it work? How does it communicate the direction you should be taking? (I travel to new places using a map & compass, but this method adds some 6 minutes to my journey per junction)