Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

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napier
Posts: 29
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 16 Sep 2017, 4:19pm

I've a 2014 Whyte Suffolk, its done around 11,000 miles and is fitted with TRP HyRd hybrid cable / hydraulic disc brakes operated from 105 road levers. They have never been very effective. At least three different LBS have tried with them, I've spent many hours changing cables etc. The back brake has all but stopped stopping the bike and even having changed the disc and pads (the latter after 1500 miles) it is now ineffective to the point of being dangerous. So I want to change the calliper. Now it gets confusing! The HyRd as far as I can figure out is a post mount but it sits between the chain stay and bottom end of the seat stay (see the picture). Having trawled around looking at different brakes I thought the Avid BB7 would work but am now less sure, most callipers, including the BB7, appear to be designed to fit the seat stay or am I missing something?

Does anyone have any suggestions? And please, no advice on making the HyRd work, my patience is at an end with these brakes; I've clearly been unlucky as they appear to get very good reviews and not cheap.
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Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Brucey » 16 Sep 2017, 4:45pm

HyRds just don't work for some folk.

I think a BB7 or a Spyre will fit to your mounts and work OK, since both brakes use an adaptor for ISO mounts that presents itself as a post mount. However it is possible you may need to fiddle with spacers to the post-mount or change the disc size to get it all to work.

With any cable operated brake in that location, the cable is liable to fill up with water, which doesn't help.

I suspect that part of your trouble may be that the hydraulic circuit won't self-bleed properly in that orientation. A tiny fault will thus mean that the hydraulic circuit will stop working.

BTW another forum user sent me his failing HyRd calipers for post-mortem. You are quite welcome to do likewise if you want.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

napier
Posts: 29
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 16 Sep 2017, 6:48pm

That's really helpful thank you, I'll give the BB7s a go. Your comment on water is interesting. A "feature" of this back brake is that in winter when the temperature is below freezing this same brake used once, will then seize on. I have to stop and force the pads open again. I guess this could be water freezing in the cable or somewhere. I'll not be sorry to see the back of them that's for sure. Let me see if I can get the new set up to work and then maybe you'd be welcome to conduct a post mortem...! Thanks again.

Brucey
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Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Brucey » 16 Sep 2017, 8:29pm

as well as /instead of the cable (which may be a problem with any brake), with the HyRds there could be freezing water in the main brake (slave) pistons, or in the master cylinder piston, causing the brake to stick on too. With the brake in that orientation, water will run down into the MC workings and pool there. There is a small rubber boot on the MC pushrod, but I don't think it is properly waterproof.

This shows what some BB7s look like if they are mounted directly to post-mount fittings similar to yours

Image

its worth mentioning that the BB7 sticks out a little more than some others (including a spyre I think) so be wary of a heel clearance issue.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

napier
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 16 Sep 2017, 9:28pm

Thank you! I'll let you known how I got on with the BB7, just need to wait for Chain Reaction to do their stuff....

Valbrona
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Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Valbrona » 16 Sep 2017, 9:32pm

You get a pair of the shorter version actuation arms for your HyRd calipers. Then they work.
I should coco.

napier
Posts: 29
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 17 Sep 2017, 6:33am

My experience with these brakes, on this bike, is such that I'm not willing to spend any more time on them. They're not a cheap brake to buy so the continuing need to tweak them in order to be able to stop my bike is not something I'm willing to do any more. Thank you for your suggestion though.

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Gattonero
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Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Gattonero » 17 Sep 2017, 8:41am

The HiRd was an interesting concept, but the major flaw was that cable-pull ratio from different brake levers will not make it self-adjusting.
Given that stock pads are also very short-lived, it makes it for a brake that in theory is working but the pads don't reach the rotor properly.
Often a little bit of fiddling with the grub screw can do the trick, but this has to be done with trial&error, as it can make things worse by making it a close-circuit.

Because there are other problems, like the brake wire that gets a lot of moisture when the caliper is in that position, I'm not sure if people wants to keep on fiddling with it. Disk brakes have high expectations for many, and should be hassle-free as it happens on most of the Mtb ones.
I too would advise for Avid BB7 and it's job done.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

napier
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 17 Sep 2017, 2:03pm

Yes, they sure don't self-adjust - or seemingly adjust at all! I'd originally got around the problem by tightening the cable and ignoring the stop bolt which I only learned about later. So when I set them up correctly they no longer worked properly. Its a pity that Whyte put them on the Suffolk because it is genuinely one of the best built, best riding and reliable bikes I've had. And its had a hard life, most of it in the winter on a 36 mile round trip commute on grotty Kent lanes. Just the brakes that have let it down. Thank you for your observations anyway.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2017, 6:31pm

napier wrote:Yes, they sure don't self-adjust - or seemingly adjust at all! I'd originally got around the problem by tightening the cable and ignoring the stop bolt which I only learned about later. So when I set them up correctly they no longer worked properly...


It sounds like you may have multiple issues with your brakes. They certainly won't self adjust properly if the arm is not allowed to come back (every time the brake is released) far enough to put the stop bolt in, or the pushrod has been adjusted w.r.t. to the arm, or the hydraulic circuit has any kind of other problem.

About a year ago I explained to a very experienced cycle mechanic in an LBS my understanding of how to set up these brakes properly and I was able to demonstrate to him that they did self-adjust as advertised when set correctly. It seemed all wrong to him because the brakes only started to come on when the brake levers ( STIs for version 1 shimano dual pivots) came back half way to the bar before the brake came on. He, (like many others) initially wanted to adjust the cable to get the bite point closer to the handlebar, and didn't at first understand that this would also deprive them of their raison d'etre of being self-adjusting. The brake pull after this point seemed slightly greater than normal, which could have been caliper alignment, spongy cables, or a tiny air bubbles in the hydraulics. We improved matters by removing the reach adjusting shims from the levers.

Nine months later the same bike came back in for new brake pads, and in the meantime the brakes had been trouble free, much to the happiness of the bike's owner. The brake bite point had slightly improved all by itself so that the bite was before half-lever travel. Whether this was a bubble coming out of the hydraulics (which could affect piston pullback BTW) or caliper alignment or something else was not clear. Anyway I have to say that they actually felt bloody good, far better than I had expected them to be in fact. IIRC on this bike the rear caliper wasn't set at such a daft angle, which may have helped.

Brucey top-tips; if you want to test for self-adjustment function;

1) try pushing the pistons back (as if new pads were being fitted). If the pistons don't move back fairly easily, the chances are that the compensation port isn't uncovered in the MC. If so, backing off the cable adjustment may improve matters.

2) try working the brake lever a few times with no pads in the caliper (fit a spacer block so that the pistons won't come out completely). The pistons should come out further with each stroke of the brake lever, and pull back a fraction of a mm when the lever is released. If the pistons don't move easily/evenly, one piston is probably sticky, and may improve if you put one drop of brake fluid only (mineral oil in this case) on the sticky piston so it moves more easily.

The issues above you can have even if everything else is OK. If you have other problems in addition, it may (in a way that isn't an illusion) seem like the brakes will never work properly. A cable-only system can be a lot less faff to sort out, mainly because it is a lot simpler. This can be a very good trade against the marginal gain of self-adjusting pads.... :wink:

cheers
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napier
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Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 8:09pm

Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby napier » 17 Sep 2017, 7:45pm

I guess the fact that there is so much to say about these brakes and how to get them to work properly speaks volumes. Having a piece of important safety equipment that requires everything to be spot-on is unhelpful. For example, when you're cycling in the very north of Scotland, miles from anywhere, (which I do) simple and reliable is best. That said, I'm looking forward to an evening of fitting the BB7 when it comes. You'll know how well that goes by whether or not I'm back on here seeking help!

Brucey
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Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2017, 8:28pm

I absolutely agree simple, easily repairable, is good.

For this reason I think that disc brakes of any kind are of questionable benefit vs other sorts of brakes. I have learned to live with the many shortcomings of other sorts of brake, but I am not sure that I could ever say the same of disc brakes.

cheers
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pedalsheep
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Re: Replacement for HyRd disc brakes - suggestions?

Postby pedalsheep » 19 Oct 2017, 6:20pm

Did you fit BB7s in the end?If so how are you getting on with them? I am far from happy with the HyRds on my Croix de Fer and interested in possible replacements.
'Why cycling for joy is not the most popular pastime on earth is still a mystery to me.'
Frank J Urry, Salute to Cycling, 1956.