Tubeless tyres

[steady eddy]

These seem to be getting a lot of coverage recently. If I understand things correctly you tape up your rim to make it air tight and fit a tubeless valve then a tubeless tyre with slime to keep things sealed if you puncture. What I am not entirely clear about is can you tape up any old rim to convert to tubeless or do they need to be special tubeless tyre rim?
I can see the benefit of getting rid of tubes and the associated risk of pinch punctures. You also get rid of all that hassle of trying to mend punctures in the rain and you save some rotational weight which is always welcome.
The question is of course do these benefits out weigh the (considerable) extra cost? The tyres seem to be quite a lot more money
Has anybody changed over to tubeless and if so how was it? Does it really mean that you can leave the puncture repair kit at home?

[Brucey]

some issues;

-even rims that are meant to be tubeless compatible vary in size enough to cause tyres to be variable in fit
- tyres vary too
- tubeless rims have lips that are meant to retain the tyre bead seated when the tyre is flat. These don't always work.
- on other rims there is a real risk that the tyre loses its seating immediately when it goes flat
- some combinations of tyre and rim are actually dangerous when used in a tubeless configuration; (if the tyre seals on the rim in the wrong place, the hook bead no longer helps to retain the tyre)
- tubeless tyres leak air and need pumping regularly ( a bit like tubs with latex tubes do)

All tyres tend to be a tight fit on tubeless rims, to the extent that I would actively avoid these rims unless I was definitely going to use tubeless.

It can be a major faff to get tubeless tyres seated and sealed, even in a well-equipped workshop.

To reseat a tubeless tyre by the side of the road, CO2 is pretty much the only way. Unfortunately CO2 reacts with most types of latex-based sealant, so it is best if the tyre has the CO2 removed (and perhaps the sealant too) as soon as is practicable.

Many sealants will corrode aluminium so are not recommended for use on tubeless rims that have no rim tape.

A significant proportion of punctures are of the sort that are large enough (eg made by broken glass) that the sealant in tubeless tyres isn't going to cope. You still need to be able to deal with this situation by the side of the road. To cope with this eventuality you need to carry a spare tube and something to undo the (usually very tight) valve stem locknut. And to accept that the whole process might take a lot longer than with a standard tyre and rim.

It obviously depends on where you ride and what your tolerance of various things is; arguably you trade time in the workshop faffing about vs time by the side of the road with 'normal' punctures but once in a while you will get the sort that won't seal and then it is a major faff by the side of the road. Some folk reckon this will only happen once every 7000 miles or so and that maybe this is OK. But others reckon it is a more frequent occurrence than that and a significant proportion of tubeless users have ditched them for tubed tyres again as a consequence.

With sensible (easy-fitting) tyre and rim combinations, a tube can be changed and you can be on your way again in a couple of minutes. This doesn't sound so bad to me.

cheers

[sukuinage]

some issues;

-even rims that are meant to be tubeless compatible vary in size enough to cause tyres to be variable in fit
- tyres vary too
- tubeless rims have lips that are meant to retain the tyre bead seated when the tyre is flat. These don't always work.
- on other rims there is a real risk that the tyre loses its seating immediately when it goes flat
- some combinations of tyre and rim are actually dangerous when used in a tubeless configuration; (if the tyre seals on the rim in the wrong place, the hook bead no longer helps to retain the tyre)
- tubeless tyres leak air and need pumping regularly ( a bit like tubs with latex tubes do)

All tyres tend to be a tight fit on tubeless rims, to the extent that I would actively avoid these rims unless I was definitely going to use tubeless.

It can be a major faff to get tubeless tyres seated and sealed, even in a well-equipped workshop.

To reseat a tubeless tyre by the side of the road, CO2 is pretty much the only way. Unfortunately CO2 reacts with most types of latex-based sealant, so it is best if the tyre has the CO2 removed (and perhaps the sealant too) as soon as is practicable.

Many sealants will corrode aluminium so are not recommended for use on tubeless rims that have no rim tape.

A significant proportion of punctures are of the sort that are large enough (eg made by broken glass) that the sealant in tubeless tyres isn't going to cope. You still need to be able to deal with this situation by the side of the road. To cope with this eventuality you need to carry a spare tube and something to undo the (usually very tight) valve stem locknut. And to accept that the whole process might take a lot longer than with a standard tyre and rim.

It obviously depends on where you ride and what your tolerance of various things is; arguably you trade time in the workshop faffing about vs time by the side of the road with 'normal' punctures but once in a while you will get the sort that won't seal and then it is a major faff by the side of the road. Some folk reckon this will only happen once every 7000 miles or so and that maybe this is OK. But others reckon it is a more frequent occurrence than that and a significant proportion of tubeless users have ditched them for tubed tyres again as a consequence.

With sensible (easy-fitting) tyre and rim combinations, a tube can be changed and you can be on your way again in a couple of minutes. This doesn't sound so bad to me.

cheers

The one thing that Brucey hasn't mentioned is that the original idea for tubeless is for mountain bikes where the pressure is low and, by dint of avoiding pinch punctures, allowing even lower pressure and hence better grip. If your intention is using tubeless for higher pressure, road bike tyres then the original reason for tubeless i.e. lower pressure for better off-road grip, is pretty much non-existent and the problems with losing pressure, seating tyres etc. are much greater.

[amediasatex]

I've been a tubeless convert on the MTB for over a decade and wouln't consider using tubes offroad any more, the benefits are numerous and the technology while not perfect is proven enough for normal use.

I'm still not convinced for road use though and I haven't converted*. The inconsistencies in fit and compatibility are more of an issue with road tyres, the consequences of failure higher, and the benefits too few IME.

For an inbetweeny bike running 32mm to say 48mm tyres for mixed surface riding but with a road bias I think I might consider tubeless but only using a complete 'system' with known compatible parts, however this would be expensive and I'd just as happy stick with tubes I think.

Whether or not it's 'worth it' is entirely down to you and how much you are affected by particular issues.

*other than some initial testing, I mean the rest of my road bikes are still tubed

[MikeDee]

I don't think I'll ever go tubeless road, even though I have tubeless wheels. One person on a tour I was on last year had a flat that wouldn't seal. He sagged out early that day rather than deal with the flat. He left a tube in that tire for the rest of the tour. I've heard stories from folks on other forums that dealing with the tight fitting tires and messy sealant on side of the road was such a pain that they gave up on it. I don't get that many flats anyway.

[steady eddy]

Think I will stick with the tubes then.

[Brucey]

you never know they may iron out all the bugs yet, and Mavic have a 'road UST' standard that they are pushing which might be better (or at least more consistent).

But I'll be honest and say that I am not holding my breath.

cheers

[Gattonero]

Think I will stick with the tubes then.

I don't think I'll ever go tubeless road, even though I have tubeless wheels. One person on a tour I was on last year had a flat that wouldn't seal. He sagged out early that day rather than deal with the flat. He left a tube in that tire for the rest of the tour. I've heard stories from folks on other forums that dealing with the tight fitting tires and messy sealant on side of the road was such a pain that they gave up on it. I don't get that many flats anyway.

I guess that if there was a forum available, many decades ago when pneumatic tyres started to be fitted on bicycles, people would have said the same thing.
To this day, you can still get problems with a system considered universally good as clincher tyres: i.e. try to fit a Schwalbe Marathon on a cheap £25 pre-built wheel with single-wall rim, and see how baggy the tyre fits and how easy is for the tyre to pop off the bead, with the risk of blowout of the inner tube.
In a nutshell: it's not the system per se to have problems, but how good is implemented and how consistent the fitting is across the brands!

[Brucey]

...In a nutshell: it's not the system per se to have problems, but how good is implemented and how consistent the fitting is across the brands!

There are for sure many problems with the implementation of the idea, but IMHO the idea itself -for road bikes- is conceptually flawed; a significant proportion of punctures on fast, lightweight road tyres (which are of the most interest to folks) are of the sort that won't seal. When this happens you are right in the mire if you are running tubeless, but a coupe of minutes' work away from being able to ride home if you are not.

Let me draw a parallel; would you use a 'marginally better performing' chain that you had zero chance of being able to repair (within half an hour or at all) by the roadside in the event of breakage? Or would you use some kind of fancy fastener that was 1% lighter in weight, but rendered any roadside work impractically slow and messy? Would you advise others that using kit like this was a smart move?

I don't think the comparison between solid tyres and pneumatics is even close to being relevant, except to mention that with another hundred years of development behind it, the solid tyre still isn't preferable to even the cheapest and nastiest pneumatic tyre. By contrast folk have ridden along and have not been able to tell if they are riding tubeless or not....

cheers

[Gattonero]

I don't think that Tubeless tyres are implemented for "racing on tarmac" (so to speak) only, it won't make sense.
In fact, I cannot recall road Tubeless tyres in 23mm size? They won't have enough air anyway, but even with a real 25mm size it's unlikely to get a puncture with small flints or glass, I've seen several people riding their road Tubeless and wearing them out with no punctures, and there were indeed small cuts and the like.
As always, some people is quick to claim miracles of Tubeless, Disk brakes, carbon fiber and everything else. There's a place and a use for everything, hardly any "universal use" thing, especially bicycle tyres.

[mnichols]

I've gone tubeless on a few bikes:

MTB - probably about 5 years ago never had a puncture
Adventure/Gravel bike - about 18 months ago. I did have a puncture and put a tube in and haven't got back round to making it tube less again, but will do
Road Bike - Just done mine ready for winter - first ride at this weekend. The main attractions for me were:

- Never had a puncture in my MTB which gets a proper pounding
- Riding with roadies that have gone tubeless that don't get punctures
- The very impressive videos online showing them resisting punctures
- Needing to replace my tyres anyway, liking the reviews of the Schwalbe Pro Ones - really low RR
- Already got the wheels, so can't see a downside
- Hate repairing punctures with cold/wet hands in winter

Worse case I'll put a tube in, so why not?

[Brucey]

the pros are all road-racing on 25mm tyres these days? They of course show very little interest in tubeless clinchers for racing whilst they have service cars that are chocca with nice wheels which are shod with nice tubs. Sprint rims are lighter and stronger, and a well-glued tub can be ridden on whilst completely flat (briefly) without the same issues as trying to ride on a flat wired-on tyre.

IIRC Chris Boardman did a piece on tubeless tyres during the TdeF coverage and he pointed out that maybe the (small) performance deficit vs tubs might be worthwhile on stages where wheel speedy service was less assured, since the race could thus be won and lost. Then again such stages are the mountainous ones, and any extra weight/drag would tell over weeks of racing...

Maybe a pro team will take the sponsorship shilling and run tubeless tyres at some point, if they are paid enough to do so...

It seems to me that the most enthusiastic adopters of tubeless tyre technology on the road are those riders who (for their own reasons) insist on riding all winter long on 'performance tyres' that have all the structural integrity of a second-rate condom. Such tyres tend to puncture rather easily in the winter and maybe they have a point, if you are going to use those tyres. But

a) why the heck do you want to train and commute etc on performance/race tyres anyway...? and
b) that all the air might not come out of the tyre immediately is not the only concern; small cuts will soon knacker the carcass of such tyres.

On the latter point I have seen tyres such as the Schwalbe One suffer a flat or two but be unsafe to ride any further on due to multiple cuts that have damaged the carcass. It doesn't matter if you run tubes or not with such tyres, the tyre will still fall apart when it is cut up like that; a different (more robust) tyre would be a better choice for the conditions, for sure.

cheers

[amediasatex]

those riders who (for their own reasons) insist on riding all winter long on 'performance tyres' that have all the structural integrity of a second-rate condom. Such tyres tend to puncture rather easily in the winter

Although not a (road) tubeless user I probably fall into that camp...and my reason is mostly; 'Winter' lasts too long and life is too short to ride horrible tyres

I don't really find that I get that many more flats in winter than summer, a few maybe, but still on average less than 1 every couple of months, and that's riding 6-7 days a week, I can live with that level of mild inconvenience for the benefits the nicer tyres bring.

Other people may have different experiences or levels of tolerance for fairy visits though so as always it's an entirely personal weighing up of pros and cons.

[mattsccm]

Back to the OP.
What you are considering is common on MTBs. Of course pressures are lower and generally the potential consequences are probably lower if it goes wrong. It works better with wider rims and nowadays many of these are tubeless anyway.
Non tubeless tyres are more of a No No.
Other than that there are too many variables to get a fair answer. For example I have never ever had a tyre damaged. Punctures in my experience are thorns or nails. Perfect for tubeless as they will seal. Never had a problem seating but as I have spent decades fitting sodding great knobblies to the back of motorcycles I have leant that technique is everything.
Road tubeless is like road disc brakes. Of course they are not needed, of course they are new and may have some teething troubles and of course they don't suit everyone's need but that doesn't mean they are bad. We doubted disc brakes on MTBs but nowadays they are universal. Our grandparents or what ever doubted free wheels.
Try it. It may work for you and your rim/tyre combination, it may not. The tyres will still work with tubes in.

[mnichols]

Having just returned from my garage where I changed the valves and topped up the sealant, there is one advantage that hasn't been mentioned

My garage floor is now completely air tight