Ti Audax frame recommendations...

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fastpedaller
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by fastpedaller »

amediasatex wrote:Well, I've placed an order for the Spa...hopefully it'll do the trick once it arrives!

It was the seat angle that swayed it in the end, everything else was too steep.
Custom from Burls would have been lovely, but £1200+ vs £750 is too hard to ignore, that's a lot of spare cash for parts/wheels...


I'm confident you'll be delighted with it - as I have been with my Spa steel tourer. Does it come with a headset? I couldn't get on with the all taper roller headset provided for mine, but easily changed.
mnichols
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Joined: 22 Apr 2013, 4:29pm

Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by mnichols »

Just bought my second Enigma Etape. I already have the original with rim brakes, but splashed out in the sales and bought the disc brake version - reduced to £999 frame and fork

I'm going to transfer everything over from my other Etape, and then restore the old frame. As it's titanium it should come up good as new. I'll then store it for a while

My carbon (synapse) frame is nearly 10 years old, but I upgraded the group set last year. So when the carbon frame needs replacing I'll move everything across from to the stored Etape frame

Enigma still have some Etape Frame/Fork combos for £999 if you are quick
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

Does it come with a headset? I couldn't get on with the all taper roller headset provided for mine, but easily changed


It does but I have one already I'm going to fit instead anyway.
One thing that might be of interest is that the finish on the Spa now appears to be different, when I called up to order I asked if I could have a spare set of decals (in black) for it, but they said that the pictures are out of date and instead of the matte finish with stickers they are now a brushed finish with etched/blasted graphics. Will see what it's like when it turns up, I was quite keen on the old grey finish but I'm not much bothered either way!

Enigma still have some Etape Frame/Fork combos for £999 if you are quick


Apart from the fact it doesn't really fill any of my criteria it looks like a great deal ;-)

Genuinely mean that though, if you're in the market for a disc frame and the geo works for you that's a cracking price!
Samuel D
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Samuel D »

I wouldn’t mind seeing a few close-up photos of the details on your titanium Spa Audax. There isn’t much on the Spa Cycles website. Head junction with the pump peg, seat stays from a couple of angles (the ones on the steel Audax are wavy), etc.

If I ran a bike company, my customers wouldn’t have to scurry around trying to find basic information about my products. That’s what websites are for! Bob Jackson and Mercian don’t even publish geometry for their frames. How are you supposed to order without begging them for the geometry of basically all of their frames to see which one might work or be a good starting point for a custom order? Gah.
pwa
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by pwa »

fastpedaller wrote:
amediasatex wrote:Well, I've placed an order for the Spa...hopefully it'll do the trick once it arrives!

It was the seat angle that swayed it in the end, everything else was too steep.
Custom from Burls would have been lovely, but £1200+ vs £750 is too hard to ignore, that's a lot of spare cash for parts/wheels...


I'm confident you'll be delighted with it - as I have been with my Spa steel tourer. Does it come with a headset? I couldn't get on with the all taper roller headset provided for mine, but easily changed.


I stuck a nice black Hope headset in mine. Or rather, I got the man in a nearby bike shop to do it. When I picked it up he remarked on how cleanly finished the frame was.
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

I wouldn’t mind seeing a few close-up photos of the details on your titanium Spa Audax. There isn’t much on the Spa Cycles website. Head junction with the pump peg, seat stays from a couple of angles (the ones on the steel Audax are wavy), etc


I'll try and sort some out for you once it arrives, although I doubt mine will have a pump peg as I ordered the 52cm so the headtube will probably be too short to have room for one. 52cm seemed the best fit for me, the TT is maybe 10mm shorter than I might prefer but that's easily handled with stem/bar options. The seattube on the 54 would be a little long for my stumpy legs, and the headtube is a bit long on the 54cm too!

last time I looked on the Mercian website there was geometry available, but I see they've re-vamped the site since then. They also used to have a custom bike builder app on there where you could load in one of their frames and then meddle with colours, tubing diameters and angles and whatnot, but that seems to have gone.

To be fair to them I can see the logic of not publishing geometry tables when they are basically custom builders, they're the kind of place that want to chat with you about what you want, and since every aspect is up for modification it's a bit tricky to compare! But, I can also see how it's frustrating if you just want to start with a ballpark for comparison...tis often the way with 'traditional' builders though, their online presence isn't always as good as it could be.
Keezx
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Keezx »

Can somebody explain the really stupidly long top tube/ low head tube combinations of the Spa Audax TI frames?
I'm 1.80 with normal leg lenght and a bit short arms and could'nt ride any size with a 100 mm+ stem ....not to mention a flipped stem and 40 mm spacer tower....
Even included the moderate seat angle, thestem would be just 100 mm in the smallest model.
This thing seems very attractive to build up as winterbike, but the geometry is impossible for me.
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

Can somebody explain the really stupidly long top tube/ low head tube combinations of the Spa Audax TI frames


I don't think they're actually that long when you take the seat angle into account...

I've spent the last week or so poring over geo charts and just about every other bike I've looked at in the <56cm range has had a 74/74.5 degree seat angle, and some have been 75! Thus their quoted TT measurements are shorter, very roughly 10mm per 1 degree, once you take into account the angle I think the Spa offerings are at worst 5-10mm longer in reach.

FWIW the headtube length is going to have a lot of personal preference involved, I've just steered clear of the 54cm (a size I could and otherwise possibly would ride) because I feel the headtube is too long. This isn't a tourer remember, it's an Audax bike, and although that means comfy it doesn't mean 'not racy'. It's also far easier to add spacers if needed or flip a stem to bring the bars up if you wan them higher, there's not much you can do to go lower if that's your preference when the headtube won't allow it.

I'm 1.80 with normal leg lenght and a bit short arms and could'nt ride any size with a 100 mm+ stem ....not to mention a flipped stem and 40 mm spacer tower....


As an example here, to compare, I'm 174cm, shortish legs, I've ordered the 52cm, (quoted TT is 549mm, ETT is 561mm), I am expecting to build this up with a 90mm stem and my favourite mid/~100mm reach bars, If I were to use modern compact/75mm reach bars I'd probably need a 110-120mm stem.
Based on the 115mm headtube length, plus ~30mm headset stack height, and taking into account the 67.5mm bottom bracket drop on this frame, i think I'll be using 10~20mm of spacers under the stem to get the position I want, which is 3-4cm saddle-to-bar drop.

Obviously I'll have to fiddle a bit to get it 100% but that's my starting point, if the headtube was any longer, like the 135mm of the 54cm I'd not only be running with no spacers, I'd might even be looking at a stem with some drop depending how it all worked out.

But I think Colin531 is the one you really would need to ask as I think he designed the geometry for them, and I seem to remember him saying something about them perhaps being a tiny bit longer than other offerings due to him wanting to keep a sensible front centre distance to avoid toe overlap? I could have imaged that though...

* as in reference to 'stack and reach' not reach from saddle to bar.
Samuel D
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Samuel D »

I’m one who’d prefer a longer head tube, but I think 531colin, who designed these frames, takes the reasonable view that there is nothing wrong with 40 mm of spacers. Indeed, I have a (single) 48 mm spacer on mine (photo). That’s the 54 cm frame with a 100 mm stem. I ride a fairly low saddle for my height of 5' 10" (1.78 m).

I could ride a 56 cm or even 58 cm Spa Audax with a shorter stem, but when I got the frame I was concerned about the length of the top tube (I have a short torso for my height) and started off with an 80 mm stem on the 54 cm. As I got fitter, that got longer.

The slack seat-tube angle effectively makes the top tube shorter than it seems, because on frames with steeper seat tubes you need to run more saddle setback to compensate (provided that’s possible, which it often isn’t).

A longer top tube and shorter stem give you more clearance between toe and front wheel than a shorter top tube and longer stem. Many people care about that, especially those with big feet, rearward cleats, fat tyres, and/or mudguards. Doesn’t bother me much.



EDIT: I repeated a couple of amediasatex’s points, who may have edited his post after initially posting.
Keezx
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Keezx »

Well, I think Colin's personal preferences spoiled the thing for me. :(
Cannot see how a 1.70 m person (and there are slill lots of them who like cycling) ever can fit properly on a 52 cm Spa Audax TI....
Weight distribution will be too far on the rear due to the long reach, a short stem does'nt change that.
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

Cannot see how a 1.70 m person (and there are slill lots of them who like cycling) ever can fit properly on a 52 cm Spa Audax TI....


Would they not be better off on the 50cm one?

Weight distribution will be too far on the rear due to the long reach


Why so? An inline seatpost gets you back to a 'virtual' seat angle of 74+deg if that's what you want. The front centre on the 50/52cm bikes is only ~10-15mm longer than other small bikes, and although its personal, many people take great issue with toe overlap, I'm not one of them personally, but I know several who simply will not entertain a bike with it. Oviously it can be overcome to some extent with slacker head angle and more fork offset (like they have done with the 50cm version), but that still leaves your body in the same place between the wheelbase and when you look at a lot of 'small' bikes with short TT measurements you actually find they're not that small at all, they just have very steep seat angle artificially shortening the top tube measurement but not actually shortening the reach (as in horizontal distance from BB to head tube)

I can't help but think you're missing the point about the seat angle, the bikes are not actually that long, but the slack seat angle means the actual physical length of the top tube is longer, even if the 'front end of the bike' isn't.
Comparing to most other small frames with 74-75 degree seat angles means you can take off 20-25mm off the listed length, so the TT of the 50cm goes from 528mm to ~500mm, and ETT from 542mm to 515mm, and that's shuffling a saddle forward on a normal layback post, you could go shorter again with an inline port if you wished and if the riders legs suited such a saddle-BB setback.

A great example is the Dolan I mentioned in the first post, I was looking at one of those as an option but check out the geo chart:

https://www.dolan-bikes.com/tiadx-geometry-chart

The reach is actually longer on the smallest 50.5 size than it is on the 53.5 size!
All due to the steeper seat angle, slacker headtube and lower stack height. The ETT is listed as 8mm shorter, but as soon as you stick a saddle on there you could well be to be back in the same position of longer reach to bars once setback taken into account.

That's just one example fresh in my mind form this week, there are numerous others out there though where the 'small' size isn't actually much smaller at all.

It's one of those situations where slacker angle is generally better as it gives options, ie: running brooks on normal seatposts, or putting the saddle a bit more forward on a normal layback post rather than right at the rear limit, or even as above, using an inline post. If the seat angle is too steep you can't move backwards, but you can move forwards with a slack one.

I'm pretty sure Colin has some pics of the smaller size set up for a (very?) short rider to demonstrate though.

But you can't build a bike to please everyone anyway, for every person that says this tube is too long or that angle is too steep there's another saying the exact opposite, but sensible choices do allow a lot of leeway and adjustment, and likewise poor choices limit it.
Last edited by amediasatex on 28 Nov 2017, 1:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
Keezx
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Keezx »

I'm very much aware of the seat angle (which is is good for many people) and the fact that it shortens the actual reach.
Makes the reach of the 52 cm model more/less equal to a frame with 55 cm top tube and more normal 73,5 degree seat angle.
55 cm is stlll pretty long for a 52 cm frame with 115 head tube....
I have to accept and respect the design choices, but I think i will put off a lot of potential buyers...
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

Makes the reach of the 52 cm model more/less equal to a frame with 55 cm top tube and more normal 73,5 degree seat angle.


granted, but most 52cm frames, don't have a 73.5 degree seat angle these days, they have ~74.5deg
So they already had long TT's masked by a steep seat angle.

eg: 52cm frame with 74.5 degree seat angle, with a listed ETT of 52cm, is equivalent to 54cm ETT if it has the Spa's 72.5 deg angle.

So yes the Spa is a little longer, 20mm, so I revise my earlier 10mm statement, but that's still not that long.

I can fully understand it might not suit though, but that's life isn't it, some bikes will work for you, and some won't, but they'll work for others.... I discounted half a dozen other frames because they didn't fit in the other direction.

but I think i will put off a lot of potential buyers...


I wonder if in the real world, most people pay a little less attention the numbers on paper than us picky types do, and just go by test rides and adjustments at the shop :lol:
Last edited by amediasatex on 28 Nov 2017, 1:51pm, edited 2 times in total.
Keezx
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by Keezx »

The last sentence is so very true....
I tend to forget that I'm 65 with 45 years expierience and know what I want.
amediasatex
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Re: Ti Audax frame recommendations...

Post by amediasatex »

and know what I want.


Likewise with me, and people that know what they want are the worst to please ;-)
Doubly so when we all have different proportions and preferences too...

Eeek! jsut looked at the geo chart for the (well regarded) Enigma Etape disc

http://www.enigmabikes.com/bikes/etape-disc/

76 degree seat angle on the 52!!!, not to mention that the actual seat tube on that frame is 46cm, TT of 52cm, and that suggests that's ETT based on the diagram, so what, 55.5cm ETT if it had a 72.5deg SA?

And that's a bike described as 'For club riders, commuters, tourers or sportive riders' and is in their Endurance Road category, so as close to Audaxy as I think they do.
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