Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

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sun ra
Posts: 107
Joined: 3 Feb 2010, 11:27pm

Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby sun ra » 22 Jan 2018, 1:50pm

Please forgive as I realise this gets asked time and time again. I'm building up a new touring rig with 135mm rear spacing. Looking for a suitable cup and cone rear hub to compliment the front SOn Dynamo. From reading it looks as though a steel axle shimano deore LX in 36h would be the way to go?

Is the T670 the correct model?

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Brucey » 22 Jan 2018, 1:55pm

yes.

Lube it properly and adjust it correctly and it will last very well.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sun ra
Posts: 107
Joined: 3 Feb 2010, 11:27pm

Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby sun ra » 22 Jan 2018, 8:32pm

Thanks for the speedy reply

sun ra
Posts: 107
Joined: 3 Feb 2010, 11:27pm

Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby sun ra » 22 Jan 2018, 9:17pm

Know this has been covered but is this model any better/worse?

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s117p14 ... r-Hub-T610

Bez
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Bez » 22 Jan 2018, 9:26pm

IME the Deore hubs are a step down in terms of durability, I would go for the T670.

Brucey
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Brucey » 22 Jan 2018, 9:28pm

there is not much to choose between them but in theory the 670 model is meant to be slightly better.

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FH-T610-3515.pdf

indicates many of the parts are the same. The list of compatible parts is not complete; the freehub bodies are the same between models too but this is not indicated in the compatibility listing. Compare with

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FH-T670-3314.pdf

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sun ra
Posts: 107
Joined: 3 Feb 2010, 11:27pm

Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby sun ra » 23 Jan 2018, 8:07am

That's great thanks. For the extra five pounds or so that it costs, I might as well purchase the T670 then.

For the price this hub costs it's hard to believe it's reported to be so durable.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my stupid phone. Pro

Brucey
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Brucey » 23 Jan 2018, 9:02am

sun ra wrote:
For the price this hub costs it's hard to believe it's reported to be so durable.


well remember that I said 'if they are correctly adjusted and lubricated' ..? Well the snag is that they are usually not in that condition when you get them. Really they need to be serviced and set up carefully if you want to get the best out of them. As a bare minimum I would suggest that you

a) whack a load more good quality grease in the bearings and
b) when the wheel is built,make sure that the hub is adjusted correctly ( i.e. a little free play that just disappears when the QR is tightened)

-which will take about five minutes. If you want to do a really thorough job you can additionally;

c) make sure that the RH cone and locknut are really tight (ideally threadlocked to the axle). Adjust on the left side only.
d) run some lube (eg gear oil) into the freehub body
e) re-shim the freehub body (there is usually a tiny bit of free play, which you are better off without)
f) drill the hubshell for a lube port
g) use a SFG inside the hub, with corrosion inhibitors etc
h) check that the hollow bolt is secure
j) run a little waxoyl (or similar) around the spoke holes and into the crevice between the freehub body and the hubshell; this will improve corrosion resistance.

It is best to do all this when the hub is fairly new, because the seals only work/don't wear if they are wetted with lube, and this is a temporary state of affairs unless the factory lube is improved upon; something more fluid inside the hub will keep the seal lips wetted. The most vulnerable seal is the one at the LH side of the freehub body; the idea of the gear oil is that it keeps this seal lip wetted. The idea of the SFG is that it slowly works its way into the freehub body and it doesn't cause the pawls to stick. The idea of the lube port is that if the hub sees some really foul conditions (e.g. complete submersion) then you can pump it full of SFG (which takes no time at all) and this will purge out any contaminants (NB any excess lube will come out of the hub over the next few tens of miles, and will need to be wiped away; this is important for disc brake hubs). The hub can be maintained at any time using the lube port, but if you set up the hub right to begin with, it will usually go for several years without further attention.

Items c-j above are worth doing with a hub that has seen some use already. IME once the freehub bearings are set perfectly, they won't need to be touched (probably ever) again, provided water doesn't get into the bearings. The reason for this is that (unlike every other bearing on a bike) the freewheel bearings either see load or movement, not both at the same time (unless there is free play). Also they don't see shock loads in normal use. This all means that they might corrode if water gets in, but otherwise, if they are adjusted correctly, they don't have any good reason to wear appreciably.

In a nutshell, this type of hub represents the logical development of a design that has been evolved over about 35 years; the current LX hubs are IMHO better quality than XT hubs used to be when they first came out and about the same as the last steel-axled versions were. Nearly everything about these is stronger and/or more durable than almost any other hubs that you can buy, in a touring bike context.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PhilD28
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby PhilD28 » 23 Jan 2018, 9:35am

Take note of Brucy’s reply it is exactly correct. I’ve used older xt and the more recent lx for many thousands of loaded touring miles in some extreme conditions, floods, snow, dust/sand etc. I build my own wheels and at that time service the hubs as described and normally they only need servicing again when I re rim them although they are checked in between times.

There is much talk about very expensive cartridge bearing hubs but My own experience suggests that for a touring bike, particularly when loaded, there’s no need to spend any more than the price of lx, of course they aren’t going to impress the fashion conscious buyer, but they impress this engineer with their fitness for purpose at a good price.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jan 2018, 9:51am

It always puzzles me when these threads come up how (arguably) the World's best bicycle components manufacturer produces something so obviously excellent, and then fails the ha'pth of tar test. It puzzles me even more when it continues to do so.

Brucey
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Brucey » 23 Jan 2018, 10:55am

Bonefishblues wrote:It always puzzles me when these threads come up how (arguably) the World's best bicycle components manufacturer produces something so obviously excellent, and then fails the ha'pth of tar test. It puzzles me even more when it continues to do so.


The grease they use is a bit of mystery; but its selection is perhaps driven by cost and the fact that they almost certainly don't do any testing for use when there is road salt present. It probably seems OK when merely exposed to the occasional summer shower. However I have seen the shimano-type grease turn brown through corrosion inside three weeks of winter use when the hub seals (in a cheaper hub) did not work.

The hub bearing adjustment cannot ever be 'perfect' in loose hubs that are then built into wheels; unavoidably the spoke loads and the QR loads both change the correct setting appreciably. So the customer (or the bike shop) is required to add the final daub of tar in any event. Be aware that cartridge bearing hubs also suffer from bearing preload variations for similar reasons, about which you can do almost nothing.

Note also that at least (using a hub vice) you can precisely set cup and cone hubs (with steel axles) up easily; the later hub designs with aluminium axles allegedly offer 'easier bearing adjustment' but this cannot be carried out when the hub is under QR load. This makes setting such hubs up properly a proper PITA.

In truth all hubs will fail if they are not maintained; the choice of hub can vary with the type and frequency of maintenance that you are prepared to do.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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andrew_s
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby andrew_s » 23 Jan 2018, 12:21pm

PhilD28 wrote:Take note of Brucy’s reply it is exactly correct. I’ve used older xt and the more recent lx for many thousands of loaded touring miles in some extreme conditions, floods, snow, dust/sand etc. I build my own wheels and at that time service the hubs as described and normally they only need servicing again when I re rim them although they are checked in between times.

I been doing much the same, and have done since the bearings on one of my first rear wheels started rumbling in relatively short order (8 months?), and were found to contain a very minimal quantity of grease when I took them apart.

It does strike me that a disadvantage of disc brakes is that the rim doesn't wear out, so it would be fairly easy to leave the wheel far too long between services (makes mental note to service the back wheel tomorrow night).

sun ra
Posts: 107
Joined: 3 Feb 2010, 11:27pm

Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby sun ra » 25 Jan 2018, 8:59am

I appreciate all the advice and will attempt the more thorough method of setting up this hub as outlined by Brucey in his last post.

Once I've worn the hub in a little and carry out adjustments c-j, what size/weight washer would I need to shim the freehub body to help remove any free play? (step 'e') I'm assuming it would be less than 0.5mm (less than 20 thou in old money)


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Brucey
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Brucey » 25 Jan 2018, 9:49am

sun ra wrote:....Once I've worn the hub in a little and carry out adjustments c-j, what size/weight washer would I need to shim the freehub body to help remove any free play? (step 'e') I'm assuming it would be less than 0.5mm (less than 20 thou in old money)....


The way the freehub body is constructed is like a conventional freewheel, but the parts are a bit smaller and you need different tools. I recommend that you get hold of an old freewheel, and practice re-shimming that before tackling a freehub body. All you normally need for a screw-on freewheel is a simple punch to loosen the lockring/cone.

The construction in both uses a freewheel bearing cone (lockring) that screws onto the freewheel body centre using a LH thread. When tightened properly, this is seated on a bed of shims. To remove free play is usually a matter of removing one or more shims (which can be done with the unit kept horizontal, with just the lockring off, no need to take it all apart), and then seeing that the adjustment is correct by fully retightening the lockring/cone onto the remaining shims. Shims are made in various different thicknesses from ~0.05mm upwards, but not every freehub body contains the thinnest shims, and the shims are not available as spare parts. Also if you are between increments of 0.05mm you may have the choice of a bearing that is slightly too loose or one that is slightly too tight.

Potentially if you don't have the correct shims it can be difficult to adjust the freehub body perfectly. However there are some dodges;

a) rob an old freehub body for its shims
b) make new shims by cutting shim stock
c) lap the seating face of the lockring/cone

Note the following; shimano freehub bodies use different shims from off-brand freehubs (which mostly use the same size shim as one another), but otherwise adjust the same. You can use a shimano shim in an off-brand freehub provided it is sandwiched between two of the correct shims (so it is unlikely to move sideways when the lockring/cone is retightened) but not usually an off-brand shim in a shimano body.
It is fiddly work but you can cut shims using ordinary scissors and a suitable shim stock. Steel beer can will do. If you use a very thin steel shim or an aluminium shim, best to have it midway in the shim stack, else it may fail as the lockring is tightened. Smaller adjustment increments than 0.05mm can be obtained by swapping between thicker shims that differ by a smaller amount.

Note also that the base shim in the stack is usually best left alone, else the ball bearings may drop into the workings, which will then require that you take the thing apart (tedious) to retrieve the ball bearings. There are about fifty 1/8" balls in a freehub body and about double this quantity in a screw-on freewheel. Also note that the base shim is often indented with an impression of the part it bears against. If this shim is disturbed, the lockring will have to be tightened more than normal before the base shim is squashed flat again where it matters, so it is possible to get a false reading on the adjustment.

Lapping the rear face of the lockring/cone is possible to fine-adjust a freehub. About 30s lapping by hand on 600 grit paper (on a perfectly flat steel plate) is usually enough to remove 0.005 to 0.01mm from the rear face, which has the same effect as removing a shim of this thickness. If you have the patience you can make the adjustment *perfect* using this approach, even if your shims don't have the correct increments. Obviously it is necessary to clean the part thoroughly between trial fittings, else you will introduce abrasive into the freehub body.

To lift shims in and out of the freehub body, use two paddle-shaped tools (I made some by squashing some old spokes) or a pair of small flat blade screwdrivers will do. It looks as if you can lift a shim using one tool, but it will tend to catch on the screw threads; using two tools opposite one another avoids this.

Note that you can only gain access to a freehub body by removing the RH seal; to get this out without damage requires a method that varies with the hub/seal design. Be prepared to have to buy a new seal if necessary. Once the seal is out you need a special tool to unscrew the lockring/cone. I made a super-duper one but you can buy a suitable tool on e-bay for about six quid last time I looked.

This all sounds as if it might be frightfully long-winded and awkward. Sometimes it is, especially if you are doing it for the first time. But it can sometimes be very simple; the last one I did was a new LX hub and all I had to do was remove the topmost shim and it went from 'noticeably slack' to *perfect*; this took about ten minutes for me to do, in addition to the usual hub setup.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Sweep
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Re: Touring hub: Shimano Deore LX T670

Postby Sweep » 4 Sep 2019, 6:10am

Think I will stick to the "plain" 610 deore.
If even brucey can't spot the real difference between this and the 670 it must be small and only potentially a source of bother.

I like to standardise when possible, already have two 610 wheels, so I think the next will be as well. Allows me to swap bits in extremis for of course it's often cheaper to buy a whole new hub than bits.
Sweep