The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

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Gattonero
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Gattonero » 3 Feb 2018, 12:05pm

Samuel D wrote:...

neilob wrote:Plus 4s are pretty good too.

What’s functionally or economically good about them? That’s all I’m interested in.


You get the knees protected from wind and cold, even if it's summer (or you can alway roll them up). I ride all year in plus fours, have some lighter ones for the summer and heavier ones for the winter, can always add knee-warmers if gets too cold. Better ventilation than long trousers, not as exposed as short-shorts.
I find them really practical, have no idea how to quantify the economical advantage or penalty, is there such thing? As long as trousers fit well and are durable, the price is relative to this.
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since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Samuel D » 3 Feb 2018, 12:39pm

So most of us seem to be in agreement that cassettes of about 11–28T to 11–36T would be better if they started at about 13T instead – which they did in the 7-speed era.

Does anyone know, then, why Shimano doesn’t do that anymore? Do the German trekkers (big market) want these 11T sprockets for some reason?

Gattonero: neilob was gently mocking me for liking something old. Good on ya for wearing something you find useful regardless of its age!

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Gattonero
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Gattonero » 3 Feb 2018, 12:42pm

Samuel D wrote:...
Gattonero: neilob was gently mocking me for liking something old. Good on ya for wearing something you find useful regardless of its age!

and that's very much the spirit of the thread: use whatever you feel more comfortable with 8)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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The utility cyclist
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Feb 2018, 1:36pm

I can't wait for 12 speed to trickle down, nay in fact I think 14 speed with a double or triple chainring and electronic/wireless shifting, it has to be the way to go, so much better than having only 7 different options, better for touring, commuting or utility when loaded most definitely, especially the electronic gear shifting.
Having a gear for any situation you will ever come across on any terrain and whatever cadence you happen to like pedalling at you can command with very little effort to go to the next gear along at just the push of a button without having any big jumps.
It certainly makes it more appealing to newcomers to have gearing made so easy and never have to adjust how fast you pedal significantly to maintain the same speed up or downhill.

There is no timeless appeal for a particular set up, some are more physically attractive to a given person, some prefer simple but more hard work/endeavour, some prefer more modern offerings and all the advantages it gives even if it costs more. Not a single person here doesn't have modern tech and I bet they wouldn't go back to the previous step otherwise they would still be there. Going by the rationale we might as well just go back to living in the trees, knock yourself out, I'm not bothered enough to start a thread purporting it to be the good ol days/best of times though it's interesting to consider the up/down sides of such. 8)

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby peterh11 » 3 Feb 2018, 1:53pm

Thanks for all the info! This made me check on the position with Marchisio cogs, and I learned that Marchisio is no longer making them apparently. So I just ordered a complete 8-speed set from Clemenzo in Germany (who claim to have them - hope they have all the right cog sizes) to keep in the cupboard for when the current ones (13-30) wear out. That should last me at least 10 years with care before I have to face the 11-tooth question!

The bike where I use these is a 1970s Super Galaxy with the rear end reset, running now 3x8 (approx 23-95” gearing) and DT levers on Kelly Take-offs. That’s as far as I reckon I can or want to take this bike in terms of more gears and fancy shifting. It is just fine for me cycling around Cambridgeshire/Suffolk/Essex/Herts - I spin out in top gear around 33mph and can still get up our (relatively small) hills.

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby fastpedaller » 3 Feb 2018, 2:17pm

Brucey wrote:
fastpedaller wrote: ....although the %tage change is the same when a rear change is made, it's the real change in inches that matters...... With a large front ring the change in inches is large than with a smaller ring!....


well it depends how you look at it; remember the sprocket intervals come in fixed chunks. If you have a ~70" gear using a 52T chainring, and vary the sprocket +/- 2T, the resultant %age variation is ~4/5ths the size of a +/- 2T variation on a sprocket that is correctly sized to give a ~70" gear on a 42T chainring.

Similarly when TTing I would far sooner run a 52T chainring and 15, 14T sprockets than (say) 42T chainring and 12T, 11T sprockets; 52/15 is almost identical to 42/12 but the next gear up is a fair bit different, a significantly bigger gap to 42/11 than 52/14.

It is less efficient with smaller chainrings and sprockets too, by an amount that is (for racers) comparable to the effect of spending about £40 more per tyre.

cheers

Yes, I agree....an interesting approach, which I'd not appreciated as I'd done my comparison using the same sprocket - but of course it's a different part of the gear range (in inches).
ETA... but for my 'gear chart' the jumps in inches are bigger in the larger chainrings - certainly in the often-used 70-80" ranges, so I rest my case.
It's those darned smaller sprockets 11 or 12 that muddy the water :lol:

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Gattonero » 3 Feb 2018, 3:04pm

The utility cyclist wrote:...
There is no timeless appeal for a particular set up, some are more physically attractive to a given person, some prefer simple but more hard work/endeavour, some prefer more modern offerings and all the advantages it gives even if it costs more. Not a single person here doesn't have modern tech and I bet they wouldn't go back to the previous step otherwise they would still be there. Going by the rationale we might as well just go back to living in the trees, knock yourself out, I'm not bothered enough to start a thread purporting it to be the good ol days/best of times though it's interesting to consider the up/down sides of such. 8)


I think that a particular gear type suits more a certain type of bike. I.e. I can't see one of my modern steel or alluminium bikes to have 6 or 7speed gearing, aside from the incompatibility and lots of workarounds and compromises to make, there will be some sort of bottleneck.
OTOH, other bikes are perfectly fine with 8sp gearing, or even one gear!
Recently I put together this frame that was probably going to be scrapped, turns out it's decent and rides well, is becoming a very practical bike for A to B or going to work. One gear is enough in some circumstances, and can't be more simple and reliable than this!

(the picture is a bit deceiving, looks like has got miles of seatback but is not)
Image
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Spinners » 3 Feb 2018, 6:47pm

Samuel D wrote:... would be better if they started at about 13T instead – which they did in the 7-speed era.



Even on 8, 9, 10 and 11 speed systems I look out for cassettes that start with a 13. My favourite 7-speed road bike had a 52/42 chainset and a 13-21 cassette. I was younger, lighter and fitter though :D
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busb
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby busb » 3 Feb 2018, 8:40pm

Any bets on how long it will take to go from 12 to 14?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Feb 2018, 10:08pm

busb wrote:Any bets on how long it will take to go from 12 to 14?

Given that one team(aqua blue) are running 1x11 it wouldn't surprise me to see it sooner than some think, BUT with syncro shift di2 it'll shift automatically to next biggest/smallest gear even if that involves a chain ring shift so 2x 12 might be the most gears pro racers need (and from that also weekend warriors etc)
I still think 3x10 for touring gives a better availability of ratios closer together to make it easier to maintain momentum particularly with a load and transitioning from different terrains than previous offerings/eras.

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby fastpedaller » 3 Feb 2018, 11:22pm


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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Feb 2018, 11:40pm

fastpedaller wrote:Won't have to wait?
https://factoryjackson.com/2016/04/01/s ... -unveiled/

Given the 142mm OLN on certain modern frames it's probably not as ridiculous as that April Fools joke makes out. 12 speed was in the pipeline for hub gears 20+ years ago, TISO brought out a wireless 12 speed derailleur system in 2012 but wasn't released commercially AFAIK, it was ugly as sin though.

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby busb » 3 Feb 2018, 11:46pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
busb wrote:Any bets on how long it will take to go from 12 to 14?

Given that one team(aqua blue) are running 1x11 it wouldn't surprise me to see it sooner than some think, BUT with syncro shift di2 it'll shift automatically to next biggest/smallest gear even if that involves a chain ring shift so 2x 12 might be the most gears pro racers need (and from that also weekend warriors etc)
I still think 3x10 for touring gives a better availability of ratios closer together to make it easier to maintain momentum particularly with a load and transitioning from different terrains than previous offerings/eras.

Single chainrings make some sense on MTBs, even CX but road bikes? I doubt it. Doesn't mean to say it won't happen though.

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Brucey » 4 Feb 2018, 12:17am

IIRC shimano have patents that cover 14 speed cassettes.... :roll:

cheers
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby The utility cyclist » 4 Feb 2018, 12:32am

Brucey wrote:IIRC shimano have patents that cover 14 speed cassettes.... :roll:

cheers

so you fell for the April Fools joke.lol :lol: