The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

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Brucey
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Brucey » 4 Feb 2018, 1:26am

The utility cyclist wrote:
Brucey wrote:IIRC shimano have patents that cover 14 speed cassettes.... :roll:

cheers

so you fell for the April Fools joke.lol :lol:


https://www.google.com/patents/US5954604

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-14-speed-patent-50973/

seems an odd time to be trying an april fools and trust me, there is nothing funny about coughing up for patent lawyers... :roll:

cheers
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Roadster
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Roadster » 4 Feb 2018, 2:17pm

Even a 3x14 system would still be far too coarse and inaccurate for me, I'm afraid. When I ride down to the pub or up to the shops, I need to micro-manage my cadence to an accuracy of +/- one rpm, so something like 5x15 over a range of 25" to 100" (i.e. one gear per inch) would be the absolute minimum as far as I'm concerned.

Until Shimano gets its act together and starts giving its customers the multiplicity of gears they really need, I'm just going to struggle on with the five speeds of my Alfine 8 system. Yes, I know it actually provides three more but I only ever use speeds 1, 3, 5, 7 and (rarely) 8, otherwise I'd be having to change gear every five minutes!

peetee
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby peetee » 4 Feb 2018, 3:05pm

Until Shimano gets its act together and starts giving its customers the multiplicity of gears they really need


No doubt that has long since invented by The Big S but, marketing being what it is, why give the customer what he/she really wants when every 12 months you can introduce incremental improvements and reap the profit several times over en-route.
Sceptical? What was it about 10 speed that couldn't have been done when 8 speed came out? In fact 10 speed 105 was a retrograde step because of the dreadful design of the STi levers with a gap in the casing that caused the mechanism to shave off bits of rubber hood.
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Roadster
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Roadster » 4 Feb 2018, 3:31pm

Indeed, Peetee, but consumers must also take their fair share of the blame. As with the volume control on the Spinal Tap amplifier, why have one that only goes up to 10 when you can have one that goes up to 11?

amediasatex
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby amediasatex » 4 Feb 2018, 4:23pm

Not a single person here doesn't have modern tech and I bet they wouldn't go back to the previous step otherwise they would still be there


Well that's a bet already lost, I'm not the only one on this thread to have said they have either 'back-graded' or deliberately chosen an older setup on a new build where it's more appropriate for the use.

Some modern tech is great for everyone, some modern tech is good for the majority, some modern tech is good for a minority and some is no good for anyone.

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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Feb 2018, 10:27am

Samuel D wrote:So most of us seem to be in agreement that cassettes of about 11–28T to 11–36T would be better if they started at about 13T instead – which they did in the 7-speed era.

Does anyone know, then, why Shimano doesn’t do that anymore? Do the German trekkers (big market) want these 11T sprockets for some reason?

Gattonero: neilob was gently mocking me for liking something old. Good on ya for wearing something you find useful regardless of its age!

As the German trekkers are using mtb front rings, it's possible they do get to use those 11-sprockets. But even with a 26" wheel and a big ring of say 44T, that 11T sprocket still gives you a gear over 100", which I'd call big.

Brucey
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Brucey » 5 Feb 2018, 10:51am

remember also that some folk (mostly not experienced cyclists) tend to pedal at near glacial speeds, and insist on having absurdly high gears fitted, else won't buy a given bike. Many is the time when (on the basis of riding 100 yards down the road in a state of some over-excitement) someone has said "I need bigger gears than this", confidently proclaiming that a 100" gear is 'too easy'. A deal of patient explanation is then required to persuade them that if they were to use that gear properly, they would be averaging about 30mph, not 15mph.... :roll:

cheers
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peetee
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby peetee » 5 Feb 2018, 2:29pm

Got to agree with you there Brucey. However I am sure Eddy Atkins would have relished a 11t sprocket to go with his 60t chainring. :lol:
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

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Mick F
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Mick F » 5 Feb 2018, 2:43pm

Horses for courses there. :D
I love a wide range of gears, and a 100" top gear isn't nearly enough.
Mick F. Cornwall

andrew_s
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby andrew_s » 5 Feb 2018, 3:18pm

Roadster wrote:Even a 3x14 system would still be far too coarse and inaccurate for me, I'm afraid. When I ride down to the pub or up to the shops, I need to micro-manage my cadence to an accuracy of +/- one rpm

Sounds like you want a Nuvinci, which has an infinite number of gears :)
(stepless gear changes, for those who haven't come across them)

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Cugel
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Cugel » 6 Feb 2018, 4:13pm

Brucey wrote:remember also that some folk (mostly not experienced cyclists) tend to pedal at near glacial speeds, and insist on having absurdly high gears fitted, else won't buy a given bike. Many is the time when (on the basis of riding 100 yards down the road in a state of some over-excitement) someone has said "I need bigger gears than this", confidently proclaiming that a 100" gear is 'too easy'. A deal of patient explanation is then required to persuade them that if they were to use that gear properly, they would be averaging about 30mph, not 15mph.... :roll:

cheers


When I were a lad, 142 years ago, a 4 speed Benelux was enough. In fact there was a 46/49 double chainwheel too, with seat tube changer - but I never used it and wore out the 46 ring whilst the 49 remained pristine.

However, I was then young and ignorant. Over a lifetime of cycling (well, 58 years) I have come to have a "need" for close ratios at the back. I can't abide a 2 tooth jump at the fast end and must even have 18-19-20 in the range! The three rings at the front provide three ranges, for fast, normal and Pennines (or anywhere in Wales).

Happily I raced (when at my fittest) on a highest gear of 52X13. In fact, I employed a schoolboy block of 15-21 for many races as it had 1 tooth jumps all the way through. Always I was in the sprint, although on occasion I couldn't twiddle quite fast enough to see orf that Mathews.

Call me a pea-sensitive Princess but I go best when the gear ratios are close, even now that I'm an old tourist. And all those tiny sprockets are a waste of ratios. Oh yes they are!!

So, although I have the 52/39/30 triple rings, I also have a chopped 11-speed cassette of 14-32. I had to buy two (11-32 & 14-28) to make this, which is annoying. I fail to see the point of adding cogs at the back of the 12 & 11 variety! Who are all these MAIMILs foolishly peddling down 1 in 4s at 40mph when they could be freewheeling at 52mph if they just tucked their knees and elbows in?

Cugel

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby [XAP]Bob » 6 Feb 2018, 4:44pm

I can pedal quite happily with elbows tucked in, and I don't think my knees add that much resistance - then I am on a properly shaped bike...

But with a 75 tooth chainring I don't need 11 teeth on the sprocket too badly...

My trike could do with some smaller sprockets, then I suppose that's why they normally sell it with the 9tooth small sprocket...
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Mick F
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Mick F » 7 Feb 2018, 6:27am

Cugel wrote:Who are all these MAIMILs foolishly peddling down 1 in 4s at 40mph when they could be freewheeling at 52mph if they just tucked their knees and elbows in?
What happens if you come to a long hill of 10%?
Personally, I'll get into top gear of 115" on one bike, or 134" on the other, and pedal down in a relaxed fashion at circa 35mph.

Freewheeling, I'd be lucky to get to 25mph.

I love close ratios. I love lots of them, and I love them in a wide range. Give me 15" at the bottom and 120" (or more) at the top, and stack as many combinations as I can fit in there.

Best setup I have - and it's fantastic! - is my Moulton TSR.
Triple 61/48/34 with a 10sp 11-28 cassette, coupled with a 3sp SA.
Ninety combinations from 16.7" all the way up to 134"
Highly recommended.
TSR90 Gear Inches.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall

Samuel D
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby Samuel D » 7 Feb 2018, 10:01am

Mick F wrote:
Cugel wrote:Who are all these MAIMILs foolishly peddling down 1 in 4s at 40mph when they could be freewheeling at 52mph if they just tucked their knees and elbows in?

What happens if you come to a long hill of 10%?
Personally, I'll get into top gear of 115" on one bike, or 134" on the other, and pedal down in a relaxed fashion at circa 35mph.

Freewheeling, I'd be lucky to get to 25mph.

These speed estimates are off. On a 7% gradient I sometimes descend, my speed quickly rises to about 65 km/h (40 mph) in an aero tuck with no pedalling before I have to hit the brakes. On a 10%, speed would soon be higher, probably over 80 km/h (50 mph).

I can comfortably pedal my 100" top gear at 65 km/h, but pedalling at a reasonable power at that speed is slower than tucking, such are the aerodynamic forces at play. The energy is entirely wasted. Besides, I’m usually happy to rest for a few seconds in anticipation of the pedalling that awaits me before home. So even where valiant pedalling fractionally increases speed on the descent, it slows overall progress.

I can’t count the number of people I drifted away from in an aero tuck while they pedalled strongly in oblivion to the massive drag they were incurring with their body in a pedalling posture. This concept is apparently neither intuitive nor easily observed by the unobservant. Now that I think about it, maybe this explains the popularity of 11T cassettes.

I often see people throw the chain into top gear – whatever that happens to be – just because they’re going down a big hill. Some of them even do this at the crest of the hill at 15 km/h. So much for STIs. No thought is given to whether that gear is necessary or useful.

Even professional racers are often seen labouring out of hairpins on mountain descents when they should be in three gears lower for better acceleration.

reohn2
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Re: The timeless appeal of 7-speed gearing

Postby reohn2 » 7 Feb 2018, 10:20am

With this ^^^ I agree
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