A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

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brynpoeth
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Feb 2018, 10:38pm

RickH wrote:
ChrisButch wrote:
hamster wrote:I personally struggle with the point of spending all day dragging a kickstand round the countryside when leaning it up against a wall, tree etc is lighter and costs nothing.

I too have been mystified by this for a long time. It would be interesting to have an explanation from somebody who thinks a kickstand is worthwhile.

I've got a 2 leg one on the Circe Helios tandem (& it has a plate with a nut welded in place behind the rear BB for the purpose) - it is invaluable for loading small children on the back (1 stoker, 1 in seat). Also useful to make an impromptu bike stand when out with a group when the cafe you've stopped at hasn't any spare wall, or other leaning space, left - put the tandem on the stand & lean a couple of bike against each side! :D Otherwise I generally wouldn't bother.

Was the photo taken in Blackpool?
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott

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RickH
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby RickH » 6 Feb 2018, 10:54pm

brynpoeth wrote:Was the photo taken in Blackpool?

Yes I'd taken the grandchildren to do the annual Ride the Lights*. We've done it a few times.

*For those who don't know about it the Tuesday before the official switch on (the day after the end of August Bank Holiday) they close the Prom to other traffic for the evening & give cyclists free run of the Illumination route with the lights on. A veritable traffic jam of bikes, plus a few unicycles, trikes, etc. thrown in for good measure. A complete lap of the lights, from one end to the other & back, is about 10 miles. If the weather is nice & the tide isn't right in you can go up early & have some time on the beach too, which is usually popular with small children.

Brucey
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby Brucey » 7 Feb 2018, 7:45am

Pilar wrote: ....I will get someone competent to look at it to see if there is anyway I can savage the bike without paying the equivalent of buying another one. And in the meantime she can enjoy a part-time retirement just assisting with the local transport rather than extended foreign adventures...


It is worth noting that chainstays on touring bikes are usually designed for stiffness rather than raw strength. Breakages do occasionally occur in this area but they are comparatively rare, despite various provocations from the manufacturer (as well as the user). For example it isn't at all unusual for the RH chainstay to be dimpled to give chainring clearance and/or both chainstays to be dimpled to give tyre clearance. These dimples are typically made using a method that isn't much different from crushing the chainstays using a kickstand clamp; thus such dents may have shortened the life of the frame in this area but it might not be as disastrous as it first appears to be.

Regarding repairs, it is possible to repair round tubes by inserting steel balls of various sizes inside and gently working the outside of the tube eg using nylon-faced hammer. This is how brass instruments are repaired; even quite badly mangled instruments can be brought back from the dead in this way.

Chainstays are often oval rather than round and may have been pinned before they were brazed, or have other projections internally. Nonetheless the tubes can often be worked back to the right shape with a bit of effort, but it does cost. So does having the chainstays replaced.

One suggestion is that you could have reinforcing plates brazed over the deformed area, and that the frame would be extremely unlikely to ever give any trouble once you had done that. However it may not give any trouble anyway, in its envisaged service, and the repair can always be carried out at a later date as needs be, so you may as well put a splosh of paint on it, use it as it is, and see how you go.

cheers
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Pilar
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby Pilar » 7 Feb 2018, 8:20am

Thanks, Brucey

Really helpful!

jeatsy
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby jeatsy » 7 Feb 2018, 8:56am

What about kickstands that affix to the chainstay bridge? I'm considering this one after it was suggested in the latest CUK magazine for those with disc brakes:

https://www.evanscycles.com/fwe-kicksta ... s-EV248272

Is this better than using the chainstays themselves?

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RickH
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby RickH » 7 Feb 2018, 9:28am

jeatsy wrote:What about kickstands that affix to the chainstay bridge? I'm considering this one after it was suggested in the latest CUK magazine for those with disc brakes:

https://www.evanscycles.com/fwe-kicksta ... s-EV248272

Is this better than using the chainstays themselves?

No. That one is mounted in exactly the same place & in exactly the same way as the one that caused the crushing in the photos at the start of this topic.

pwa
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2018, 9:35am

I've never felt the slightest need for a stand. It addresses a problem that, for me, does not exist. But if I did want to attach one to the bottom bracket / chainstay / bridge area I would look at doing a bit of woodwork with a nice hardwood to create an infill shape to which the rack could be attached, so that the pressure is on the wood and not the tubes. That would involve a good hard look at different racks to work out which, if any, could be modified to fit in that way.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby Bmblbzzz » 7 Feb 2018, 9:45am

RickH wrote:
jeatsy wrote:What about kickstands that affix to the chainstay bridge? I'm considering this one after it was suggested in the latest CUK magazine for those with disc brakes:

https://www.evanscycles.com/fwe-kicksta ... s-EV248272

Is this better than using the chainstays themselves?

No. That one is mounted in exactly the same place & in exactly the same way as the one that caused the crushing in the photos at the start of this topic.

Is it? It looks as if it doesn't contact the chainstays themselves, but clamps to the chainstay bridge.

pwa
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2018, 9:56am

Bmblbzzz wrote:
RickH wrote:
jeatsy wrote:What about kickstands that affix to the chainstay bridge? I'm considering this one after it was suggested in the latest CUK magazine for those with disc brakes:

https://www.evanscycles.com/fwe-kicksta ... s-EV248272

Is this better than using the chainstays themselves?

No. That one is mounted in exactly the same place & in exactly the same way as the one that caused the crushing in the photos at the start of this topic.

Is it? It looks as if it doesn't contact the chainstays themselves, but clamps to the chainstay bridge.


If it were clamping onto the bridge, surely the photo would show a black portion of the clamp over the top of the bridge, but all you can see there is the white surface of the bridge with no clamp on it.

jeatsy
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby jeatsy » 7 Feb 2018, 10:15am

pwa wrote:If it were clamping onto the bridge, surely the photo would show a black portion of the clamp over the top of the bridge, but all you can see there is the white surface of the bridge with no clamp on it.

It does show a black portion of the clamp over the top of the bridge, doesn't it? Here's a zoomed-in pic:

evans bike stand.png

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squeaker
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby squeaker » 7 Feb 2018, 10:25am

Isn't the bottom of the chainstay essentially in tension? Other than possible damage from cold working (and the visual effect), I wouldn't have expected major problems. Personally I'd just clean it up and repaint, maybe with some frame protector squirted in through the nearest orifice?
"42"

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RickH
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby RickH » 7 Feb 2018, 10:26am

jeatsy wrote:
pwa wrote:If it were clamping onto the bridge, surely the photo would show a black portion of the clamp over the top of the bridge, but all you can see there is the white surface of the bridge with no clamp on it.

It does show a black portion of the clamp over the top of the bridge, doesn't it? Here's a zoomed-in pic:

evans bike stand.png

There may be a lip over the edge or it could just be a gap as the bridge is often a much smaller diameter tube than the height of the chainstays. ButI'd be mor worried about those vertical edges underneath that look ready to bite great dents in the underside of the chainstay when you clamp it up tight. The PLetcheer stand I use on my tandem did at least have some thought put into the clamping parts making the biting areas reasonably chainstay shaped.

An alternative view from the webpage shows that the stand is fixed right behind the BB
FWE stand.JPG

pwa
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby pwa » 7 Feb 2018, 10:48am

Bmblbzzz wrote:
RickH wrote:
jeatsy wrote:What about kickstands that affix to the chainstay bridge? I'm considering this one after it was suggested in the latest CUK magazine for those with disc brakes:

https://www.evanscycles.com/fwe-kicksta ... s-EV248272

Is this better than using the chainstays themselves?

No. That one is mounted in exactly the same place & in exactly the same way as the one that caused the crushing in the photos at the start of this topic.

Is it? It looks as if it doesn't contact the chainstays themselves, but clamps to the chainstay bridge.

You may be right. I was thinking the bridge would be as on a lightweight steel bike, just a round section tube, but it looks like that one has some sort of flat plate on the front. But would you really want that sharp metal edge of the clamp biting down on your paint?

Brucey
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby Brucey » 7 Feb 2018, 2:32pm

the arrangement in the photos looks horrible to me; "crummy stand wrecks frame in slightly different way" is my takeaway. That frame is aluminium isn't it?

BTW I have seen several aluminium frames (with plates welded on at this point to attach a stand to) which have cracked and then broken. The loads in this area include large lateral loads whenever you pedal hard, or ride out of the saddle. I have also seen one or two TIG welded steel frames break at this point. The cause is the same in both cases, being that the welds have had large stress concentrations in them and these initiate fatigue failures.

IMHO a traditional (brazed in tube type) chainstay brace in a steel frame should be largely free of bad stress concentrations; failures at this point in well-made steel frames are very rare indeed. I think that a little damage to the top and bottom of the chainstays does not greatly increase the chances of a failure that is initiated by lateral loadings.

cheers
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irc
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Re: A kickstand has killed my touring bike...

Postby irc » 7 Feb 2018, 5:33pm

Surly covered this issue pretty well back in 2010.

https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/k ... l_truckers