Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

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sun ra
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Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby sun ra » 8 Feb 2018, 9:07am

I'm having a new touring frame built and had originally planned to spec V-brakes on it (not sure which model yet but I was hoping to use the said v-brakes with cane creek levers (model with same shape hood as the Campag 2nd Generation 9/10 speed ergos). However after a bit of reading on various forum posts I'm not sure that combination will work.

The frame in question will have room for 38mm tyres and mudguards so long reach side pulls are out of the question. I have canti's on my old Woodrup lightweight but for fully loaded touring I'm not sure how well they would stop a heavily laden bike descending in wet conditions (trying to think worst case scenario as I had a scary descent some years ago on a tour in Scotland and that was using side pull calipers and koolstop salmon pads).

I also think mini v's are a no go as there won't be enough clearance for the larger tyre with mudguard.

I'm a bit of a purist and discs brakes are not really not for me

I hoping someone can advise

pwa
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby pwa » 8 Feb 2018, 9:09am

What gears are you going for? And drop bar presumably?

djnotts
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby djnotts » 8 Feb 2018, 9:17am

Why do you think the Cane Creeks (or indeed the much cheaper Tektro RL520s) WON'T work? Pretty sure I've used the latter with Vs and they were fine.

PH
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby PH » 8 Feb 2018, 9:25am

I don't know what you've read, but the levers (Of various makes) come in a V brake specific versions and work fine.

Norman H
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby Norman H » 8 Feb 2018, 9:28am

Cane Creek do make a V brake specific drop bar lever. I believe it's a rebranded Tektro RL520 which is available considerably cheaper than the Cane Creek offering.

I use the Tektro levers on one of my bikes, very comfortable riding on the hoods with good braking from that position.

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andrew_s
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby andrew_s » 8 Feb 2018, 9:43am

If you specify Vs, you'll get better braking, but you'll have to use bar end or down tube shifters, as you need to use brake levers like the Tektro RL520, Cane Creek or Dia Compe long pull models.

If you specify cantis, you can use STI/Ergo shifters, but braking will be difficult to get set up so it works well, and also to keep set up.

peetee
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby peetee » 8 Feb 2018, 9:56am

If you ever decide v brakes are an option you need to talk to the frame builder. Some frame fittings are designed to sit inboard of the forks and stays and the arc of travel of a v brake and wide mounting to pad spacing of some modern canti's is unsuitable.
Current status report:
Latter side of fifty and feeling less than nifty.
Too many bikes on pegs and too few miles in the legs.

Brucey
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby Brucey » 8 Feb 2018, 10:18am

V-brakes and suitable levers will work fine.

But then so will cantis, if you choose the right ones and set them up correctly. If you are having a frame built you get to choose the boss height and spacing which may be different depending on what brakes you want to use.

I prefer the look of cantis on a touring bike. There are also a few practical concerns that may or may not be important to you;

- V brakes use a lower cable tension than cantis, so tolerate neglect in the cables a little better
- cantis allow you to fine-tune the brake MA whereas with Vs it is fixed (unless you use adjustable levers, flat bar fitment only I think)
- if the steering swings fully to the right, most V-brakes are at real risk of being damaged such that they are no longer safe to use; both the V-pipe and the part that it fits into are easily damaged by such an event
- it is possible to use cantis with some STIs/ergos directly whereas with Vs this requires a travel agent or similar
- cantis require that you make provision for cable hangers on the frame/fork
- either sort of brake can get in the way of certain front light fitments
- some cantis can foul on rear panniers (or even heels on some small framesets)
- if you design your frameset to accept cantis only (rather than V brakes) you can have better brakes.

You may think that you can swap between Vs and cantis, and on many frames you can. But these frames use the wide boss spacing (about 3-1/4" or ~83mm) that has become the norm since the advent of the MTB. V brakes only fit onto this boss spacing. Well canti brakes were in use for many decades before the V brake was common currency and the bosses were never set that wide; a typical boss spacing was nearer 65mm (~2-1/2") at that time and this makes a difference. Practically you can set the boss spacing to allow

- the rim only to clear between the bosses (requiring that the tyre be deflated when the wheel is removed) or
- the tyre to slip between the brakes even when it is inflated.

With a 38mm tyre a ~65mm boss spacing will usually let the tyre out, but this varies a little with the brake model used.

Why might you want the bosses closer together? Well, the brake blocks travel in an arc around the bosses and the result is that the brake blocks make contact lower and lower down on the rim as the brake blocks wear. The closer together the bosses are, the smaller this effect becomes. This can make the difference between having to adjust the brake blocks half-way through their life (without which the brake may become dangerous in some cases) or not.

The downside is that most modern cantis will only work with wide-spaced bosses; practically this reduces your choice of new brakes (that fit narrow-spaced bosses) to just a few models, for example

-Shimano Altus, configured as a mid-arm brake (adjustable because of its use of post-mount brake blocks) or
-Shimano CX50/70 (adjustable by virtue of its use of three different spacer thicknesses to allow for all practical variations in boss spacing)

It is also worth noting that the 'standard' boss height varies from one builder to another. BITD it would have to be 23-25mm (from the boss centre to the centre of the brake track) if you wanted to use the most common flavours of canti brake but most brakes now allow a wider range of adjustment than this. I have seen boss heights that range from 20mm to about 35-40mm. If you have the latter fitment you cannot get enough power out of a canti brake but you can use a full-V brake (not all models) with a lever that is designed for a DP or canti brake; if you try and use a V-lever the brake will feel wooden and lack power. However if you are going to use cantis, I would suggest that you avoid having boss heights over 25mm and in fact you consider using a boss height of around 22mm; this will give you the best braking power if you want it.

So if you are set on using cantis and intend to use BR-CX70 anyway (say), consider having the frame built with ~65mm boss spacing and ~22mm boss height.

If you want the widest choice of current brakes then have the frame built with (the current default standard) ~80-83mm boss spacing and ~25mm boss height.

cheers
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sun ra
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby sun ra » 8 Feb 2018, 1:32pm

pwa wrote:What gears are you going for? And drop bar presumably?


Yes, I should have included that info.

I'll be using drop bars with cane creek brake levers (or least had planned on the cane creeks), with Shimano 9v bar ends shifters. 11-36 9v cassette with Shimano shadow m772 9v rear mech. 135mm rear hub. Triple ST chainset up front (probably 46/36/24).

sun ra
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby sun ra » 8 Feb 2018, 1:35pm

PH wrote:I don't know what you've read, but the levers (Of various makes) come in a V brake specific versions and work fine.


Apologies ladies and gentlemen. It would seem I've found some incorrect info on some of the forums I read last night - and believed it to be true - fake news if you will

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fossala
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby fossala » 8 Feb 2018, 4:12pm

Just to add I fitted some Paul MiniMoto mini V brakes to a bike last night to stop juddering that I was getting at the front. This was on a bike with 38mm tyres and mudguards. I did only have a mm or two to spare above the mudguard though.

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RickH
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby RickH » 8 Feb 2018, 4:44pm

sun ra wrote:I'm having a new touring frame built and had originally planned to spec V-brakes on it (not sure which model yet but I was hoping to use the said v-brakes with cane creek levers (model with same shape hood as the Campag 2nd Generation 9/10 speed ergos). However after a bit of reading on various forum posts I'm not sure that combination will work.

The frame in question will have room for 38mm tyres and mudguards so long reach side pulls are out of the question. I have canti's on my old Woodrup lightweight but for fully loaded touring I'm not sure how well they would stop a heavily laden bike descending in wet conditions (trying to think worst case scenario as I had a scary descent some years ago on a tour in Scotland and that was using side pull calipers and koolstop salmon pads).

I also think mini v's are a no go as there won't be enough clearance for the larger tyre with mudguard.

I'm a bit of a purist and discs brakes are not really not for me

I hoping someone can advise

Tektro V brake drop levers work well & are almost identical in shape to the Campag Centaur 10 speed Ergos that came on a bike bought early 2008. I have a pair of the Tektros on the tandem (from when I converted it from straight to drop bars), albeit operating MTB discs rather than Vs but I didn't notice any loss of braking between the new levers & the V brake straight bar levers. I even added V brake compatible cross-top levers as well.

On a different note. When Mrs H decided she was going to get a bike, the one she got came with 28mm tyres & loads of spare space - enough, it turned out, to fit a pair of 38mm Vittoria Voyager Hypers instead for a much nicer ride. That bike has Tektro 559 DPs. They seem to work pretty well & would possibly give you a wider choice of "road" levers.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Feb 2018, 4:55pm

I've just fitted a measured 37.5mm tyre under the mudguard on my Specialized and that is fitted with TRP9s which are about 92mm centre of bolt to cable bolt centre (used with Ultegra 6700 STIs and they are superb), the height of the tyre at the front at 55psi is approx 33mm and bags of space under the mudguard (they can take 42mm IIRC) The brake pipe and stop literally just clear the guard but it's enough not to interfere with braking.
Appreciate all frame/forks are different but thought I'd give some input.

Maybe the only way to find out for sure is to fit your main preference first and see how it works out.
I haven't used cantis in an age but with decent brakes never seemed to have too many issues, recently bought a NOS carbon frame with v/canti pegs because I didn't want the fuglyness/weight of discs even though it might well cost me 0.5s of braking time in some conditions and wear out the rims at some juncture many years hence :lol: I'll be fitting std Vs though as I'm going flat bar and I like the simplicity of the set up/ease of getting decent pads.

sun ra
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby sun ra » 8 Feb 2018, 7:00pm

Brucey wrote:V-brakes and suitable levers will work fine....

If you want the widest choice of current brakes then have the frame built with (the current default standard) ~80-83mm boss spacing and ~25mm boss height.

cheers

Okey Cokey - so I'll stick with the Vane Creek levers I already had in mind as I use them on my Mercian KoM and find them very comfortable.

I think I'll opt for the V-Brakes as I suspect they will be less likely to interfere with rear panniers. BUT with reference your, post if the studs are positioned in line with those measurements you last mentioned;

~80-83mm boss spacing and ~25mm boss height.

I can swap to canti's in the future.

Brucey
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Re: Canti's or V-brakes for new touring frame

Postby Brucey » 8 Feb 2018, 7:19pm

needless to say Tektro also do a lever that is the same shape but has a caliper brake cable pull, I think RL-340 model or something?

If they are NSSLR cable pull then they ought to work best with mini-Vs, ~90mm arm length. Mini Vs give you ~10mm less space to fit a mudguard in vs full Vs, but this can of course vary with the boss height.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~