supple 28c tyre

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Gattonero
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Gattonero » 10 Feb 2018, 3:49pm

The utility cyclist wrote:GP4000 "delicate", I don't think so, measured thickness at the tread is similar, the sidewalls are 0.15mm thicker on the 4S (according to BRR). The OP wants a supple tyre, the 4S really is not a supple tyre, it's okay for what it is but there are a lot better and cheaper options out there that roll better and give decent puncture resistance.
Of course if puncture resistance (at sides and through the tread) is your main priority then you do tend to suffer in the supple/fast rolling stakes, for me as a 100kg rider I didn't like the 4S, I found it to be lifeless and not particularly fast rolling, I found a tyre that I liked that was far closer to size, gave me feedback and rolled better. Everyone has their opinion, that is mine.


28mm GP4000S are 260gr, 330tpi, Black Chili compound and Vectran layer
28mm GP4Season are 280gr, 330tpi, Max Silica compound and double Vectran layer +Duraskin

Having used extensively both tyres, on different bikes and situations*, you definitely get more punctures and cuts (especially on the sidewalls) on the GP4000s than the 4Season, altogether with the numbers above the GP4000s is certainly more delicate.
If the GP4 Season does not feel "supple" I'd check the bike and wheels, something's not right :wink:

* I think I've used a few Continental tyres over the years, to have a good idea how do they ride:
the Condor light tourer has used GP GT 24mm, GP4 Season 23 and 28mm, now GP 4 Season 25mm
the Condor Track I had was using 23mm GP4000s
the Cinelli s/speed has almost always used GP4000s 23mm
the Cinelli SC has used GP4000s 23mm, Challenge Strada, Vittoria Corsa SC (only because have gumwalls)
both the Pegoretti's have used GP4000s 23 and 25mm, the steel one has now GP 4Season 23mm
the alluminium Cinelli road has always been using GP4000s in 23 and 25mm, and GP 4 Season 23mm too
and the Union s/speed is using GP GT 25mm
and I'll pass over the Mtb's
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mig
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby mig » 10 Feb 2018, 6:52pm

thanks all.

okay now so 330tpi isn't in one layer right? or is it just the casing?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby The utility cyclist » 10 Feb 2018, 6:54pm

Simple roll down test tells you that the 4s is slower and less supple, on rolling road tests at 80psi it's 55% more watts rolling resistance wise than the 4k and gets worse as the pressures go down, at 60psi which is easily a pressure that a lighter rider might use for a 28mm the rolling resistance of the 4S is 60% worse.
As I said, if you want to prioritise puncture resistance that's great but for a tyre that I've used in 22mm tubular and 25mm form in winter my experience is that they aren't as fragile as your own experience and they are most definitely more supple and faster by a lot.

mig wrote:okay now so 330tpi isn't in one layer right? or is it just the casing?


Differing manufacturers count the layers differently, 330tpi could be 3x110, a 120 tpi tyre could end up being as supple/as fast.

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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby scottg » 11 Feb 2018, 12:35am

GP 4000s measure 31mm+ on DT 440 rims.

Supple tires would include Compass Chinook Pass 28mm, 29mm on DT 440 rims.
No vectran strips, Standards are 248g, Extra Lights are 229g
Not suitable for use in GB or by CTC* members.

*Price of tyre exceeds 10l, also not available at Aldi or Poundland. :)
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Brucey
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Brucey » 11 Feb 2018, 1:01am

a chum has a summer bike, a winter training/touring bike and a commuting bike. The latter two have been on Gatorskins for the last few years and the summer bike has been on GP4000. He has been happy enough but recently he was moaning that the gatorskins on the training bike were a bit slow and slippy in the winter conditions (he reported that he was regularly losing traction up one of the local climbs if it was damp, despite the tarmac being quite clean) and perhaps there was something better suited to those conditions that was also easier-rolling.

He fitted some GP4S on the training/touring bike and (thus far) is chuffed to bits with them. It never entered his mind to use GP4000 on that bike because he gets more than enough punctures in them on the summer bike when the weather and road conditions are better.

It would similarly never enter his mind to describe GP4S as 'sluggish'; it is all relative...

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SmilerGB
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby SmilerGB » 11 Feb 2018, 8:21am

Out of curiosity, what tyre pressure does he run on his gatorskins at winter, I’ve used mine all year round & drop the pressure slightly in wet or icy conditions & have never had issues with traction on hills etc
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Vorpal » 11 Feb 2018, 8:26am

I ride GP 4 Seasons on my commuter. I've tried GP4000s and I don't like them as well.

The 4 seasons get better traction in adverse conditions; a little frost or mud makes little difference to them. It's a different story with the 4000s. And as above, I have never had a puncture on GP 4 Seasons, until they were visibly worn out. I have had on the 4000s.
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Brucey
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Brucey » 11 Feb 2018, 10:06am

SmilerGB wrote:Out of curiosity, what tyre pressure does he run on his gatorskins at winter, I’ve used mine all year round & drop the pressure slightly in wet or icy conditions & have never had issues with traction on hills etc


My chum weighs ~75kg and I think he runs his 25mm rear tyre at about 90psi on his training bike. Any hill that can be sprinted up in 2-3 minutes is indeed used as a long interval, flat out. Any less pressure and the tyre will deform at the contact patch so badly that you will lose both grip and power; vs seated 'steady state' climbing the loads being transmitted through the tyre are probably x3 or x4 higher. Even pretty new gatorskins are kind of slippy under these conditions.

Gatorskins have some virtues for sure; tread-wear wise they last fairly well, they seem to be fairly puncture resistant, and they don't cost too much. But they have some downsides too; they are often unforgivably tight on some rims (that are not bad with other tyres), the sidewalls don't weather well and can soon look tatty (don't leave your bike parked outside all the time...), the ride quality is poor, and the rubber compound is quite hard and lacking in grip. If you run them for (say) a couple of years then the rubber becomes noticeably harder yet and the grip can become laughably poor. When they lose what little grip they started with, my chum has routinely consigned his older Gatorskins (from the training bike) to his commuting machine, which doesn't have to go up and down many hills or go round many corners.

I won't use gatorskins on a bike that I ride in the countryside, because the grip is sufficiently poor that I feel that the front end may wash out on me (without much warning) and cause me to have a nasty accident where with other tyres this won't be so likely to happen.

BTW on the subject of punctures in GP4000, there are some routes where I live that have so many small flints that you are virtually assured to puncture every time you go out on these tyres in the winter. The flints are so bad that GP4S are not really proof against punctures on these particular roads either; I suggested GP4S for training to my chum on the basis that he doesn't usually ride on these particular roads, and if he were to, he could expect to get enough punctures that it would soon become rather tiresome.

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pwa
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby pwa » 11 Feb 2018, 10:46am

I swapped from Gatorskins to GP4S on one bike, and while I like both tyres I found that the GP4S was more supple and gave a smoother ride, and it had a lot more traction on steep slippery climbs. So a great tyre for long rides and wet lanes. Neither tyre gave me much trouble with punctures and both last well enough. I've never gone for the very lightest, fastest tyres so I don't doubt that there are faster tyres out there, but I don't want to be fretting about how my tyres will stand up to the next bit of rough tarmac while I'm enjoying a ride.

I should add that I never pump tyres up above 100psi because I value my fillings, and my front tyre is likely to be at 90psi max. So my comment about relative suppleness was based on that. If you go for 120psi I'd expect a firm ride.

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Gattonero
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Gattonero » 11 Feb 2018, 1:24pm

The utility cyclist wrote:Simple roll down test tells you that the 4s is slower and less supple, on rolling road tests at 80psi it's 55% more watts rolling resistance wise than the 4k and gets worse as the pressures go down, at 60psi which is easily a pressure that a lighter rider might use for a 28mm the rolling resistance of the 4S is 60% worse....


Those percentages more or less watts required are often fouled by a good breakfast! :mrgreen:

Of course the 4 Season can be felt "slower" because it has a double layer of protection and weights a little more, also the rubber compound is different. If a 4 Season is "sluggish", what should be said about Armadillo's then?? :lol:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Samuel D » 11 Feb 2018, 8:02pm

Has anyone tried the Pirelli P Zero Velo 4S yet? This appears to be a wet-grip tyre with lower rolling resistance and less puncture protection than the Continental Grand Prix 4-Season. On paper that appeals to me. It’s expensive. Available in 28 mm.

mig
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby mig » 11 Feb 2018, 9:39pm

what are people's upper limits in terms of £s for a tyre? some seem to be ridiculously priced at the moment..! weak pound i know but some tyres are as expensive as car ones.

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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby iow » 12 Feb 2018, 9:27am

mig wrote:what are people's upper limits in terms of £s for a tyre? some seem to be ridiculously priced at the moment..! weak pound i know but some tyres are as expensive as car ones.


about £25.00 which usually means I can afford my favourite gp4000s ii, although just lately I haven't seen any priced below £30.00 in the UK.
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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby Brucey » 12 Feb 2018, 12:49pm

if you want good comfort per £ then a basic tyre from Vittoria or Michelin will do the job, but they won't be very fast and they may not be very puncture resistant.

If Michelin Lithions were easy to get in 700x28 I'd suggest those. As it is the Dynamic Sport model is about £11 and will do the job. A vittoria Zaffiro pro tyre is quite nice to ride on but again it won't be super fast or anything.

FWIW I don't mind winter training tyres that are a bit draggy; it gives you something to look forward to when the weather changes.

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Re: supple 28c tyre

Postby foxyrider » 12 Feb 2018, 2:13pm

iow wrote:
mig wrote:what are people's upper limits in terms of £s for a tyre? some seem to be ridiculously priced at the moment..! weak pound i know but some tyres are as expensive as car ones.


about £25.00 which usually means I can afford my favourite gp4000s ii, although just lately I haven't seen any priced below £30.00 in the UK.


I bought a pair from JE James in Sheffield at £50 the pair because they weren't in a box - I don't ride the box so alls good!
Convention? what's that then?
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