Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
User avatar
Vetus Ossa
Posts: 928
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 19 Feb 2018, 11:22am

Reading this topic viewtopic.php?f=5&t=120080&start=15 has prompted me to ask for advice on a niggling issue I have with my bike.
Due to poor health I now ride an ebike, no problem with that I am very happy doing so.
My bike is a 2017 Cube with 27.5 wheels as it’s a small frame.
I mostly ride on cycle tracks and on the road so pretty quickly ditched the tractor tyres that came with it and fitted Schwalbe Big Ben’s which suite my type of riding perfectly.
When I came to remove the original tyres it would be an understatement to say I had problems parting the bead from the rim, it was so difficult I considered asking the shop to do it for me, but as I don’t like to be beaten I persevered and eventually managed to fit the new tyres.
I should add I am 70 and not so strong these days.
Since riding on the Big Ben’s I have punctured once, and was lucky enough to be able to repair it in my garage as it was still as difficult to remove the tyre as previously.
The thought of puncturing away from home is a real concern, so much so I would really like to replace the rims with some none tubeless ready rims, so as to make the tyre removing process manageable.
I don’t want to get drawn into the tubeless vs tubed discussion except to say I don’t intend to use tubeless tyres.
Could anyone suggest suitable, reasonably priced rims for me please.
I would like to keep the spokes if possible to cut down on expense.
I am currently trying to find out the ERD of my rims, so I can replace them the easy way, but it’s not easy to measure in the bike is it.
My current rims are Alexrims EX23 and I can find no info on them.

andrew_s
Posts: 4432
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby andrew_s » 19 Feb 2018, 12:12pm

Disc or rim brakes?

User avatar
Vetus Ossa
Posts: 928
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 19 Feb 2018, 12:22pm

Ah yes, that matters doesn’t it, they are disc.

Bsteel
Posts: 98
Joined: 31 Jul 2014, 8:41pm

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Bsteel » 19 Feb 2018, 1:35pm


andrew_s
Posts: 4432
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby andrew_s » 19 Feb 2018, 2:07pm

Bsteel wrote:This site lists the ERD as 567.
https://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/ ... y-ex23.htm

That does assume that the Superstar EX23 is the same extrusion as the Alex EX23, which is likely, but not certain.

The 567 number is also dubious, if you compare the 26" and 200c versions of the same rim.
622-606 = 16 mm, 559 - 542 = 17 mm, but 587 - 567 = 20 mm, rather than the 16 - 17 mm that the same profile should give.

I'd be inclined to look for something close to 570 mm, if basing the spoke length on an internet value, but it's probably better to remove one of the spokes, measure it, and then start putting numbers into a spoke calculator to see which ERDs came up with the same spoke lengths.
Removing and replacing a spoke should be doable in 20 mins or so, provided you manage to refrain from losing the nipple inside the rim.

Bsteel
Posts: 98
Joined: 31 Jul 2014, 8:41pm

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Bsteel » 19 Feb 2018, 2:44pm

andrew_s wrote:The 567 number is also dubious, if you compare the 26" and 200c versions of the same rim.
622-606 = 16 mm, 559 - 542 = 17 mm, but 587 - 567 = 20 mm, rather than the 16 - 17 mm that the same profile should give.


Sheldon gives me 584 for a 650B rim ?

But agree that removing a spoke is the easiest answer.

User avatar
Vetus Ossa
Posts: 928
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 19 Feb 2018, 2:46pm

Yes, I did wonder if they were the same myself.
FWIW (not much) I did measure from the rim face to the centre of the hub and got 278mm so guess the ERD will not be far off 567.
I have emailed Alexrims asking the question but not expecting an answer anytime soon, but fingers crossed.

andrew_s
Posts: 4432
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby andrew_s » 19 Feb 2018, 2:49pm

Bsteel wrote:Sheldon gives me 584 for a 650B rim ?
Ooops :oops:

mattsccm
Posts: 2261
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby mattsccm » 19 Feb 2018, 3:04pm

Some rims just don't work with some tyres as well as other combinations. Technique can help though. Yesterday a mate and I watch another mate make a right pigs ear of a tube change. 5 minutes or more to get the tyre off, over 10 to get it back on, with 3 levers, and then he pinched the tube :lol:
In frustration I yanked the tyre off with no levers and the other mate inserted a new tube , fitted it by hand in under 30 seconds. How we laughed.

Brucey
Posts: 29912
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Brucey » 20 Feb 2018, 7:03am

It is not unusual to be able to do that with some tyre and rim combinations; however I've yet to see anyone manage that with a tubeless setup and I have to say I am not exactly holding my breath.

Yesterday I visited a LBS and one of the mechanics was sorting out a loose MTB wheel (bought elsewhere) which a customer had left, claiming it was 'buckled'. Just spinning it by hand it certainly looked like that, something was well out of whack.

Well the wheel wouldn't even fit into the truing jig with the tyre on so the tyre had to come off. Needless to say it was tight, being a tubeless rim and a tubeless ready tyre.

Once the wheel was in the jig, it didn't look so buckled. In fact it looked pretty straight. Maybe it was just the tyre badly seated or something.

There then followed a somewhat tedious twenty minute wresting match with the tyre, trying to get the thing to seat properly. This would have taken even longer but the owner had fitted the tyre with a tube, presumably because the tyre wouldn't seal on the rim tubelessly without the use of a compressor. One would think that a tyre that was loose enough not to seat easily when fitted tubeless wouldn't be so tight that it wouldn't seat properly.... but one would be wrong. After four goes with lots of lubricant and high ( verging on insane, bearing in mind it was a 2.3" tyre) pressures, and various alarming noises as the tyre moved on the rim, the tyre still wouldn't seat normally. It was a lot better than it had been but it still wasn't right, and probably never would be.

If I had paid the small fortune required for the wheels (Hope hubs, Stans rims, rim tape) and tyres (Maxxis High Roller 2.3") I would have been absolutely gutted. Doubly so because they would have charged the customer labour with the net result that all they could do was tell him it was never going to work properly..... Wot a pile of poo....!... :roll: :shock:

I don't think that such happenstances are that uncommon.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

andrew_s
Posts: 4432
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby andrew_s » 20 Feb 2018, 3:02pm

On the original point, I think that since 584 is a new rim size (in that there are no, or very few, old designs), and it's largely aimed at mountain bike use, a high proportion of what there is available will be tubeless ready.

One that does appear that it may be suitable, in that it should be a reasonably low price, and of decent quality, is the Exal BE21.
It's in their current catalog, but I can't see it advertised anywhere.
Maybe it would be worth asking Spa if they can get hold of a pair for you?

The profile looks flatter than the EX23, so I'd expect new spokes would be needed.

On the subject of tight fitting tyres & rims; I'm with the OP, in that I won't use something I can't remove and refit in 15 mins using the tools I'll have on the bike. Usually the initial fitting is sufficient indication, but if it's difficult I may try a removal as well, in the comfort of home, before use on the road. I may view a tight tyre as warranting the addition of a VAR lever to the regular toolkit, but no more.

The only tyre I've rejected so far as a particularly tight GP 4 Seasons, which was cheap from the LBS bargain basket. In retrospect, it was probably there because some other customer had returned it as being unusable. I eventually got it fitted on a spare wheel (took over an hour), and left it at 160 psi for 18 months or so, by which time it was merely "normal tight", warranting a VAR, but usable.

Carpediem
Posts: 28
Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 12:25am
Location: Lancashire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Carpediem » 20 Feb 2018, 8:33pm

andrew_s wrote:On the original point, I think that since 584 is a new rim size (in that there are no, or very few, old designs), and it's largely aimed at mountain bike use, a high proportion of what there is available will be tubeless ready.

One that does appear that it may be suitable, in that it should be a reasonably low price, and of decent quality, is the Exal BE21.
It's in their current catalog, but I can't see it advertised anywhere.
Maybe it would be worth asking Spa if they can get hold of a pair for you?

The profile looks flatter than the EX23, so I'd expect new spokes would be needed.

On the subject of tight fitting tyres & rims; I'm with the OP, in that I won't use something I can't remove and refit in 15 mins using the tools I'll have on the bike. Usually the initial fitting is sufficient indication, but if it's difficult I may try a removal as well, in the comfort of home, before use on the road. I may view a tight tyre as warranting the addition of a VAR lever to the regular toolkit, but no more.

The only tyre I've rejected so far as a particularly tight GP 4 Seasons, which was cheap from the LBS bargain basket. In retrospect, it was probably there because some other customer had returned it as being unusable. I eventually got it fitted on a spare wheel (took over an hour), and left it at 160 psi for 18 months or so, by which time it was merely "normal tight", warranting a VAR, but usable.

Yes..GP 4 seasons are notoriously difficult to fit, especially it seems on my DTSwiss RR21 rims,but once fitted they are great tyres.
With new ones I always fit and remove them 2 or 3 times in the comfort of the garage,and they seem to get easier each time.
I would definitely struggle changing a brand new one at the roadside on a cold February morning.
After saying that I've only aver had 1 puncture with them in 2 years.hope I haven't tempted fate(touch wood)twice :D

andrew_s
Posts: 4432
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 9:29pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby andrew_s » 21 Feb 2018, 12:38am

Carpediem wrote: Yes..GP 4 seasons are notoriously difficult to fit, especially it seems on my DTSwiss RR21 rims,but once fitted they are great tyres.

The worn out GP4S that it was meant to replace had been an easy fit (on Open Pro), verging on too loose by the end of its life.

Brucey
Posts: 29912
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Brucey » 21 Feb 2018, 8:31am

andrew_s wrote:On the original point, I think that since 584 is a new rim size (in that there are no, or very few, old designs), and it's largely aimed at mountain bike use, a high proportion of what there is available will be tubeless ready.....


I know what you mean but it does seem weird to refer to it as 'a new size'; it has been around for at least 110 years ( :shock: ) as 26x1-1/2" and has never entirely fallen out of favour with French cycle tourists.

A possible option is the Velo Orange Diagonale 584 rim. Available in 32 and 36 drillings, weighs 550g and has a stated ERD of 570mm

http://freshtripe.co.uk/velo-orange-diagonale-rim-650b/

However NB this is a single eyelet rim and isn't rated for more than 115kg spoke tension. In a dished (rear derailleur, and front disc) wheels will fall apart unless threadlock is used on the NDS (rear) and RHS (front) nipples.

AFAICT these rims are not a million miles away from some older rigida designs, which were not noted as giving a tight fit to tyres. I've used other VO rims (which were not tight, similar to older rigidas) but not this model.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Vetus Ossa
Posts: 928
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Re: Tight tyres on tubeless ready rims.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 21 Feb 2018, 8:51am

Thanks all for your helpful advice, especially Andrew and Brucey.
I know what you mean Andrew and was also wondering if all 27.5 rims were tubeless ready as they are new to me as well, but Brucey’s bike savvy has explained that one for me.
Anyway think ill check out those Exal BE21 rims you mention, failing that I will wait for the inevitable puncture and deal with it the best I can.