Hi All,
I've had a bike with a Shimano Alfine 8 internal gear hub for nearly 4 years now but I'm having some issues and I'm wondering whether or not I continue to persevere with trying to get the IGH working right.
The bike is a 2014 Genesis Day One Alfine 8 :-
http://www.thebikelist.co.uk/genesis/day-one-alfine-8-2014
The internal gear hub is a Shimano Alfine 8 SG-S501 and the cassette joint that I have is the Shimano Nexus SG-8R35 CJ-8S20. I have this cassette joint, which is a replacement of the original, because the original was damaged. After the original cassette joint was damaged the IGH kept slipping out of gear and following advice kindly provided by people on this forum, per the link below, I got the replacement.
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=117828&hilit=shimano+alfine+8
That was at the beginning of November at at that time the new cassette joint stopped the slipping gear problem. However frustratingly the hub slipping out of gear is a problem which is now back again. To be honest this has been a recurring problem ever since I've had the bike and it has needed addressing on a reasonably frequent basis.
At the moment it is slipping out of almost every gear which is really frustrating. With one exception, which I'll get to, whenever I change into a gear within only a few seconds I get noises which aren't right and it will almost immediately slip out of a gear into a neutral which must be between gears and I don't have any drive because its not selected/engaged any gear. This is annoying at all times but it is particularly frustrating when for example I'm setting off from junctions.
However if I'm careful, sort of using a good old friction shifting method, I can get it into 6th gear and it seems to be happy enough to stay in 6th and so on my last commute I just stayed in 6th. However that's not an ideal long term solution because I'd like to be able to get back to using the IGH as it was intended.
In terms of the hubs history it has been to two bikes shops in the past when I've had problems and I've asked for them to look at slipping gear issues. At the same time the gear cable has been changed before and I think at the moment I'm currently on my 4th gear cable (but it might be 3rd) and so roughly it's had a new gear cable every year. In addition, although I'm not sure if this is directly related to the issue, I've changed the chain for a new one at least once a year. This bike is used for year round commuting whatever the weather.
Now my next move is going to be going back the LBS as soon as I have the chance and following a recommendation given to me by Roadster I'm going to change my gear cable to a Jagwire Universal Sport gear cable with linear (compressionless) outer. I'm hoping that this will solve my current issue. At the moment I think that if you put the hub into 8th gear and then start to shift into 7th there is a tiny, but noticeable bit of movement of the shifter, before it feels like it grips and moves the cable.
However if the trip to the LBS doesn't solve the problem I'm wondering what to do next especially since this is a recurring problem that I've had ever since having the bike and it first surfaced not that long after getting the bike from new.
The bike is a drop bar bike and I'm starting to wonder a few things about the long term experience of others who have Alfine 8 IGHs:-
* Can an Alfine 8 IGH work well with a drop bar bike?
* Does the Alfine 8 work well with a bar end shifter? My bike has a J-Tek bar end shifter and I'm totally happy with using a bar end shifter but I'm starting to wonder whether there's something fundamental which means that the Alfine hub does or doesn't work will with it?
* Is it just normal for the Alfine 8 hubs to get slipping gears on a regular basis and this is just a case of the fact that I need to stay on top of this issue from a maintenance perspective? For example in order to try and avoid this issue is it just a case of regularly checking and I need to expect to be doing regular fettling / adjustments to the gear cable in order to keep it shifting correctly and staying in gear?
Whilst trying to think about potential issues the gear cable runs down from the handlebar and underneath my dynamo hub powered head light and I wonder whether the gear cable is so sensitive that movement to the cable here where it does come into contact with the light could be enough to cause any trouble.
If other people have positive experiences with the Alfine 8 and they don't have the issues that I've been having then I probably just need to persevere with trying to get things right with the shifting.
However the present situation with it constantly slipping out of gears is really annoying. On my ride to work earlier this week the hub was slipping out of gear constantly and I just didn't seem to be able to get any drive with it sticking in gear at all. This nearly led my to have a Basil Fawlty moment like he had with his car or I felt close to replicating a professional cyclists tantrum with their bike.
Until I can solve the slipping gear problem I'm going to stick with 6th but this isn't ideal. I live in Norfolk and so the majority of my journey is flat but my commute does include two or three nasty little short sharp climbs and ideally I'd like to have an easier gear than 6th.
I'm not one to change my bike very regularly. I've been riding over 30 years now and apart from a couple of kids bikes when I was very young I had two Raleigh MTBs followed by a Trek 7.1FX hybrid before I got this Genesis Day One. Therefore I do like to stick with my bikes for a decent length of time however this slipping gear issue is so frustrating that it has got me considering a new bike. I've also started considering whether it would be better to change this bike to a single speed although I think that the gear would have to be slightly easier than my existing 6th (on this bike with a 40T chainring and 20T sprocket).
Thanks in advance to anyone who has any thoughts & advice.
John
Should I stick with the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH or change?
Re: Should I stick with the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH or change?
the type of cable is virtually irrelevant in the grand scheme of things; all decent gear cables (including the shimano original) use parallel strand reinforced compressionless outer and polished stainless steel inner cables. Unless the gear cables have been replaced with substandard items then the original quality of cable is going to be just fine.
It is much, much more important how the cable is prepped, lubed and installed. There is a long cable outer run on your bike and any cable that isn't prepared and lubed properly won't work properly, not for any length of time.
A simple test is to shift to 4th gear in one direction, look at the marks on the cassette joint, then shift to 4th in the other direction. If the alignment of the marks is different (by 0.5mm or more) then the cable is bad. SImple as that.
That the hub slips in every gear is weird. 5th gear is direct drive; even if the cable is complete pants 5th gear should work OK if the cable is adjusted ~1mm tighter than normal. It takes a very rare kind of problem to stop this from happening.
The most common causes of slippage are
a) that the cable is bad
b) that there is a fault inside the hub
c) that you are using a 3/32" sprocket and it is slipping round on the driver.
The last of these faults causes persistent slippage in every gear. I suspect it of being the cause of your problems.
The reason you get slippage is that the 3/32" sprockets are dished and the drive lugs are offset to one side, and are often only half-in the grooves in the driver . They wear against the driver to create angled faces, so that under torque the snap ring is pushed towards the cassette joint and the sprocket simply slips round on the driver. Fitting a new cassette joint may temporarily improve matters by slightly increasing the force required to push the snap ring out of the way.
Normally the driver is much less worn than the sprocket and a new sprocket will make everything OK for a while. However IME the problem will undoubtedly recur unless you fit a 1/8" sprocket and chain. Since this stuff is both cheaper and better than 3/32" stuff, it is a bit of a no-brainer. Use a sturmey archer 1/8" sprocket. The drive lugs on this are much wider than on a 3/32" sprocket and in fact offer about twice the engagement to the driver, including previously unworn parts of it. I suggest that you use a KMC B1 chain. Cost of bits is about £8.
If you want to test for this problem, just remove the sprocket look at the drive lugs on it. If they are worn they will look different on each side, and the loaded (worn) sides will be angled. If you want final proof positive then mark the driver and the sprocket, go for a ride and examine the alignment of the marks. If the sprocket has been slipping then you have a 1 in 3 chance that the marks will line up again.
There are lots of bikes with this setup and (if set up and maintained correctly) it can be perfectly reliable. However it is also the case that unless your LBS is on the ball, they won't have seen all of the faults that can occur.
cheers
It is much, much more important how the cable is prepped, lubed and installed. There is a long cable outer run on your bike and any cable that isn't prepared and lubed properly won't work properly, not for any length of time.
A simple test is to shift to 4th gear in one direction, look at the marks on the cassette joint, then shift to 4th in the other direction. If the alignment of the marks is different (by 0.5mm or more) then the cable is bad. SImple as that.
That the hub slips in every gear is weird. 5th gear is direct drive; even if the cable is complete pants 5th gear should work OK if the cable is adjusted ~1mm tighter than normal. It takes a very rare kind of problem to stop this from happening.
The most common causes of slippage are
a) that the cable is bad
b) that there is a fault inside the hub
c) that you are using a 3/32" sprocket and it is slipping round on the driver.
The last of these faults causes persistent slippage in every gear. I suspect it of being the cause of your problems.
The reason you get slippage is that the 3/32" sprockets are dished and the drive lugs are offset to one side, and are often only half-in the grooves in the driver . They wear against the driver to create angled faces, so that under torque the snap ring is pushed towards the cassette joint and the sprocket simply slips round on the driver. Fitting a new cassette joint may temporarily improve matters by slightly increasing the force required to push the snap ring out of the way.
Normally the driver is much less worn than the sprocket and a new sprocket will make everything OK for a while. However IME the problem will undoubtedly recur unless you fit a 1/8" sprocket and chain. Since this stuff is both cheaper and better than 3/32" stuff, it is a bit of a no-brainer. Use a sturmey archer 1/8" sprocket. The drive lugs on this are much wider than on a 3/32" sprocket and in fact offer about twice the engagement to the driver, including previously unworn parts of it. I suggest that you use a KMC B1 chain. Cost of bits is about £8.
If you want to test for this problem, just remove the sprocket look at the drive lugs on it. If they are worn they will look different on each side, and the loaded (worn) sides will be angled. If you want final proof positive then mark the driver and the sprocket, go for a ride and examine the alignment of the marks. If the sprocket has been slipping then you have a 1 in 3 chance that the marks will line up again.
There are lots of bikes with this setup and (if set up and maintained correctly) it can be perfectly reliable. However it is also the case that unless your LBS is on the ball, they won't have seen all of the faults that can occur.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Should I stick with the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH or change?
Hi Brucey,
Many thanks for the long & detailed reply which is really useful and much appreciated!
Unfortunately a bad week at work with long days is making it difficult to get any time to spend on trying to address the problem this week but I did try a few things on the commute to & from work as well as when I got there because that was my only chance to look at the bike in daylight.
I started out by trying to look at the marks on the cassette joint when the IGH is in 4th whereby I was going to shift into 4th from both directions. Now I'm going to look again at this when I have more time and when the light is better but I had a problem with checking this. Now when the bike was in it's original stock state I remember checking on these marks and being able to look at whether they were lining up or not.
However today, and I'm wondering if this is just the case after having the new cassette joint fitted in November, but I could no longer see the marks to line up. When I had it in 1st I could see a mark but when I start going up through the gears the mark is obscured by plastic on the cassette joint and you can no longer see the mark in order to see if it lines up or not. Now maybe I was too tired or I just wasn't looking properly this morning and so I'll check again as soon as I can to see if I was missing something.
I also tried experimenting with the gear shifting today. The interesting thing was a contrast between the performance when I shifted down through the gears as opposed to up through the gears. If I started in 1st and then went up through the gears whilst it wasn't perfect and I still had some gear slipping but it wasn't as bad as on some of my rides recently. However if I was in 8th and tried to change down through the gears the performance is terrible. It struggles to engage any of the gears and you have to try and carefully sort of friction shift in order to make tiny adjustments to give yourself any chance of engaging a gear. Interestingly, seeing as it's the direct drive gear, changing down from 6th to seemed to be one of the biggest issues and it really didn't want to find 5th gar when changing down. As a result of it being more likely to stay in a gear when changing up I started using it whereby if I had to stop at a junction I'd change right down to 1st every time and then go up from there and then each time I needed to change down a gear I'd go back to 1st and then change up again.
Regarding your advice about the sprocket the bike had the original Shimano Alfine 20T sprocket that the bike came with up until last year. Then it was changed for a new sprocket in November at the same time as the replacement cassette joint was fitted. However I've got no idea what sprocket the LBS fitted. Is there an easy way to tell what they've fitted? For example would most sprockets have either 3/32" or 1/8" sprocket written on the sprocket itself somewhere? Or would you have to have a set of measuring callipers in order to be able to check & tell what it is? I know that you've recommended taking the sprocket off in order to look at the lugs but I'm not sure if I've seen enough of these to tell the difference by sight alone without the benefit of definitely having one of each type to look at in order to compare the visual differences.
On the subject of the chain a new chain was also fitted when the cassette joint and sprocket were fitted and I know that it's a KMC chain but again I've no idea which KMC chain that they fitted. Again is there any easy way to check or tell whether it's a 3/32" or a 1/8" chain or is the only way by using a tool or measuring callipers in order to check?
Thanks for all of the help!
John
Many thanks for the long & detailed reply which is really useful and much appreciated!
Unfortunately a bad week at work with long days is making it difficult to get any time to spend on trying to address the problem this week but I did try a few things on the commute to & from work as well as when I got there because that was my only chance to look at the bike in daylight.
I started out by trying to look at the marks on the cassette joint when the IGH is in 4th whereby I was going to shift into 4th from both directions. Now I'm going to look again at this when I have more time and when the light is better but I had a problem with checking this. Now when the bike was in it's original stock state I remember checking on these marks and being able to look at whether they were lining up or not.
However today, and I'm wondering if this is just the case after having the new cassette joint fitted in November, but I could no longer see the marks to line up. When I had it in 1st I could see a mark but when I start going up through the gears the mark is obscured by plastic on the cassette joint and you can no longer see the mark in order to see if it lines up or not. Now maybe I was too tired or I just wasn't looking properly this morning and so I'll check again as soon as I can to see if I was missing something.
I also tried experimenting with the gear shifting today. The interesting thing was a contrast between the performance when I shifted down through the gears as opposed to up through the gears. If I started in 1st and then went up through the gears whilst it wasn't perfect and I still had some gear slipping but it wasn't as bad as on some of my rides recently. However if I was in 8th and tried to change down through the gears the performance is terrible. It struggles to engage any of the gears and you have to try and carefully sort of friction shift in order to make tiny adjustments to give yourself any chance of engaging a gear. Interestingly, seeing as it's the direct drive gear, changing down from 6th to seemed to be one of the biggest issues and it really didn't want to find 5th gar when changing down. As a result of it being more likely to stay in a gear when changing up I started using it whereby if I had to stop at a junction I'd change right down to 1st every time and then go up from there and then each time I needed to change down a gear I'd go back to 1st and then change up again.
Regarding your advice about the sprocket the bike had the original Shimano Alfine 20T sprocket that the bike came with up until last year. Then it was changed for a new sprocket in November at the same time as the replacement cassette joint was fitted. However I've got no idea what sprocket the LBS fitted. Is there an easy way to tell what they've fitted? For example would most sprockets have either 3/32" or 1/8" sprocket written on the sprocket itself somewhere? Or would you have to have a set of measuring callipers in order to be able to check & tell what it is? I know that you've recommended taking the sprocket off in order to look at the lugs but I'm not sure if I've seen enough of these to tell the difference by sight alone without the benefit of definitely having one of each type to look at in order to compare the visual differences.
On the subject of the chain a new chain was also fitted when the cassette joint and sprocket were fitted and I know that it's a KMC chain but again I've no idea which KMC chain that they fitted. Again is there any easy way to check or tell whether it's a 3/32" or a 1/8" chain or is the only way by using a tool or measuring callipers in order to check?
Thanks for all of the help!
John
Re: Should I stick with the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH or change?
the gear change performance you describe is absolutely consistent with a bad cable (rather than a bad sprocket).
There is a second set of timing marks on the underside of the cassette joint; if the window is obscured for some reason, use the underside marks. For example put the bike in a workstand or turn the bike upside down (supporting the handlebar on pieces of wood if needs be) and have at it.
IIRC your bike was originally fitted with 3/32" chain, chainwheel and sprocket. A 1/8" chain will run fine but be a slack fit on a 3/32" chainwheel such that you will be able to slide it 1/16" side to side on the teeth. If the current 3/32" stuff isn't giving trouble then I'd suggest that you wear it out and think about 1/8" stuff next time round.
Probably the cable was never lubricated correctly when it was installed and since then water has got in one end. When you pull the inner cable out, you should be able to see which end the water has got in. If there is white powdery stuff inside the cable then probably the wrong grease was used on it. If the inner cable used was a galvanised one, then the setup is doomed, pretty much. You have to use a polished stainless steel inner cable; this need not be expensive, they sell ones that are suitable for £2 in decathlon.
When you bought a new CJ I suggested that you consider CJ-8S40
because it is sealed at the wheel end. If water has got into the cable at this end using a CJ-8S20, then changing to CJ-8S40 would be a significant improvement.
cheers
There is a second set of timing marks on the underside of the cassette joint; if the window is obscured for some reason, use the underside marks. For example put the bike in a workstand or turn the bike upside down (supporting the handlebar on pieces of wood if needs be) and have at it.
IIRC your bike was originally fitted with 3/32" chain, chainwheel and sprocket. A 1/8" chain will run fine but be a slack fit on a 3/32" chainwheel such that you will be able to slide it 1/16" side to side on the teeth. If the current 3/32" stuff isn't giving trouble then I'd suggest that you wear it out and think about 1/8" stuff next time round.
Probably the cable was never lubricated correctly when it was installed and since then water has got in one end. When you pull the inner cable out, you should be able to see which end the water has got in. If there is white powdery stuff inside the cable then probably the wrong grease was used on it. If the inner cable used was a galvanised one, then the setup is doomed, pretty much. You have to use a polished stainless steel inner cable; this need not be expensive, they sell ones that are suitable for £2 in decathlon.
When you bought a new CJ I suggested that you consider CJ-8S40
because it is sealed at the wheel end. If water has got into the cable at this end using a CJ-8S20, then changing to CJ-8S40 would be a significant improvement.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Should I stick with the Shimano Alfine 8 IGH or change?
John_S wrote:I started out by trying to look at the marks on the cassette joint when the IGH is in 4th whereby I was going to shift into 4th from both directions. Now I'm going to look again at this when I have more time and when the light is better but I had a problem with checking this. Now when the bike was in it's original stock state I remember checking on these marks and being able to look at whether they were lining up or not.
However today, and I'm wondering if this is just the case after having the new cassette joint fitted in November, but I could no longer see the marks to line up. When I had it in 1st I could see a mark but when I start going up through the gears the mark is obscured by plastic on the cassette joint and you can no longer see the mark in order to see if it lines up or not
If you need better light by which to see the marks, clean the window and use a torch for illumination.
If you look at the window whilst shifting up and down the gears, you'll see that the outer yellow mark remains stationary while the inner yellow mark rotates anti-clockwise when changing up and clockwise when changing down. The two marks are only ever visible together in the window when 4th gear is selected: in any other gear, only the outer mark is visible.
Hence, the alignment of the marks can be determined and adjusted only when 4th gear is selected, and they should return to the same alignment regardless of whether you shift up from 1st or down from 8th. Reluctance or failure to return to alignment when shifting down would strongly indicate a faulty cable, especially since the cj has been recently renewed.
Needless to say, any meaningful adjustment is entirely dependent on correct installation of the cable/cj in the first place, detailed instructions for which are given here:- http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/si/SI-6M20A-001-ENG.pdf.
You cannot automatically assume that this was done properly by the bike shop and, even if it was, you may have reassembled it wrongly yourself following subsequent removal of the rear wheel for any reason.