Campag/Shimano mix

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ian peacock
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Campag/Shimano mix

Postby ian peacock » 20 Mar 2018, 12:50pm

Greetings earthlings, recently, Brucey commented that a Shimano 8-speed set-up could be operated successfully by Campag ten speed levers; and incidentally, the much-missed Chris Juden said the same thing some time ago in the CTC comic.
My question is: which version of Campags 10-speed levers will work best with my set up, or doesn't it matter?
The original ones gave a different throw to the big sprockets, the newer design has equal throw to all sprockets.
I am currently using an IRD 7-speed block with a 32 sprocket, a Shimano rear mech and 8-speed down tube levers. Thanks, Ian

PeterBL
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby PeterBL » 20 Mar 2018, 2:51pm

I am running an 8-speed rear Shimano cassette with a 9-speed MTB Shimano RD. The right shifter is a 10 speed Ultrashift model year 09-10. Works brilliantly.

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CREPELLO
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby CREPELLO » 20 Mar 2018, 6:03pm

Classic 10/8 Shimergo isn't really a good choice anymore IMO. As 10 speed Ultrashift isn't available new, you have to either consider trying to source 2nd hand, buy into Campag Powershift 10 speed, or purchase some 11 speed Ultrashift ergo's.

Ultrashift ten speed is comparatively rare. You also have to be careful that you've bought an upgraded model. Campag had to modify the internals in the earlier examples, due to poor shifting. Some of these units received retro fits of some of the internals, but not all will have. Others will have the modification from new. There is a way to ID modified internals according to the colour of the take-up spool, visible on a dismounted body. But I can't recall which colour is which iteration now. I think maybe cream spool = earlier model, but I could be wrong.

Powershift is well known to be an inferior internal mechanism with far more plastic internals than Ultrashift and you can only change up one gear at a time.

The best option may be to purchase some Chorus 11 speed levers (Athena 11 speed are the crappy Powershift mechanism). Although they're £150 upwards, they still use the Ultrashift mechanism.

They will match the spacing for a Shimano 9 speed cassette. You can also make multiple up-shifts and the mechanism is more reliable.

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TrevA
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby TrevA » 20 Mar 2018, 6:26pm

Why would you want to mix Campag and Shimano nowadays?

The latest Shimano STIs have under the tape cable routing, the same as Campag. A set of 8 speed Claris R2000 STI is £85 from Rose Bikes and a few other places.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

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foxyrider
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby foxyrider » 20 Mar 2018, 6:53pm

TrevA wrote:Why would you want to mix Campag and Shimano nowadays?

The latest Shimano STIs have under the tape cable routing, the same as Campag. A set of 8 speed Claris R2000 STI is £85 from Rose Bikes and a few other places.


The reason i'd consider it is the lever ergonomics - I find the Shimano hoods too long and fat and I prefer the Campag changing system (plus I've been using them for 20 years!)

Are the latest Claris free of washing lines? Missed that change if they are. (they are still cheap and horrible and would never grace any of my machines!)
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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TrevA
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby TrevA » 20 Mar 2018, 7:33pm

Yes, all Shimano (Claris and above) now have no washing lines. I used Campag for 30 years - Ergos for 15 years, but converted to Shimano 5 years ago and I don't think I'd go back now.

If you are going to use Campag, at least use all Campag, not some Frankenstein mix.
A cart horse trapped in the body of a man.
http://www.jogler2009.blogspot.com

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Mick F
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby Mick F » 21 Mar 2018, 9:06am

TrevA wrote:If you are going to use Campag, at least use all Campag, not some Frankenstein mix.
I don't entirely agree.

Shimano STIs are horrible because of the too big and chunky hoods. Washing lines have gone, thank goodness.
Shimano equipment comes in a variety of speeds, and the cassettes are dirt cheap plus they come in a wide set of ratios.

Campagnolo is generally only 11sp now, and they don't do a triple any more.
Campagnolo cassettes are expensive and they don't do a wide enough selection of them.
Campagnolo Ergos knock spots off Shimano STIs.

Therefore .............. when my existing Campag cassette wears out, I'll be fitting a Shimano one. I have the luxury of having a Miche rear hub and they will take either Shimano or Campag freewheel bodies .......... and I have both available.

Also, when my existing Campag 10sp Ergos wear out (some of the bits are unobtainable now) I'll be fitting either my old Campag downtube levers, or fitting Dura Ace indexed 10sp DT levers and some sort of system to change from 10sp Shimano to Campag 10sp rear mech and with a Shimano cassette.
Mick F. Cornwall

BFn
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby BFn » 21 Mar 2018, 10:16am

CREPELLO wrote:Classic 10/8 Shimergo isn't really a good choice anymore IMO.

Powershift is well known to be an inferior internal mechanism with far more plastic internals than Ultrashift


In a thread not long ago on this subject it was claimed that Campag have modified some (plastic) internal parts in recent years, hopefully making the Powershift mechanism longer lasting:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=119465&p=1198261#p1198261
I have recently replaced my 10 speed Veloce shifters, used in a 10/8 Shimergo setup, with the same again, so very much wish this to be true.

amediasatex
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby amediasatex » 21 Mar 2018, 10:21am

Why would you want to mix Campag and Shimano nowadays?


personal preference, availability, budget, and sheer bloody mindedness to name a few...

proud rider of all shimano, all campag, shimergo, shuntour, and shimergour bikes :-D

Brucey
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby Brucey » 21 Mar 2018, 10:58am

re upgrades to the Powershift shifters, 2014, gfk velo wrote this in a linked bikeforums thread

Working from the very back of the lever forwards (so with the part of the lever that is normally against the 'bars facing you), you should have a small m3.5 screw securing a plain silver disc. Remove the screw and the disc and you should have a coiled, tensioned hair spring. Removal of the hair spring should reveal the cable bushing, made in black nylon (pre Feb 14) or white delrin plastic (post Feb 14). This is the part that the cable passes through and onto which the composite (carbon re-inforced plastic) thumb lever engages via a toothed profile which will be on the left side as you look at it. If you lift that out, you will find a metal ratchet which is engaged by a single, sprung metal hook, which is responsivle for setting the index interval of the lever - it is indeed just like an escapement movement in a clock & works on the same principle.

There is no "alternate" latching though. Just a single, spring loaded latch.

The way the system works is that as you depress the thumb lever, the tip of the thumb lever first engages the plastic cable bush and holds it still. As you continue the movement of the thumb lever, the latch is lifted out of the metal ratchet, also by the thumb lever. The gear does not shift yet because the cable bushing is being held still by the thumb lever. As you start to release the thumb lever, the cable bushing is pulled anti-clockwise by the tension on the cable helped by the hair spring. A fraction of a second later, as the tip of the thumb lever "lets go" of the cable bushing, the hook engages the next ratchet point clockwise on the metal ratchet and the shift is completed as you fully release the thumb lever.

The main vulnerabilities of the system are threefold.

If the two pivot points, the one that the thumb lever pivots round and the one the latch pivots round, are displaced from one another, the timing is upset and the lever won't work. This can happen if the thumn lever is repeatedly derpressed with excessive force, as once the latch is disengaged, it's movement tops out against the inside of the lever body putting a bending moment on the thumb lever pivot. Eventually either the pivot can distort or the root of the pivot in the composie of the lever body can be compromised. Either way, the lever can slip as a result.

If the cable bushing wears, the timing of the lever can be disturbed and the cable bushing is let go a fraction too early for the latch to be fully engaged on the metal ratchet and so the lever may skip one sprocket. As the wear increases, there comes apoint where the latch will ride over the top of the ratchet, unable to "catch" one, two, three or all of the passing teeth as the lever internal is rotated by the cable tension, so as the lever wears it tends to skip one, two, three and eventually all the gears.

If the tip of the thumb lever wears, the effect is the same as bushing wear - the timing of the lever is disturbed.

Obviously, the wear can and does occur over time without the presence of mineral oils - they simply accelerate the process, which is why I said the *in most cases" ... other things can also come into play that might affect any mechanism, from hard use, to very abrasive operating environments, to simple material failure, to manufacuring tolerances being marginal.

However, the general experience from many tens, in fact 100s of thousands of units made on the same system (bearing in mind that the internal mechanism is basically the same as the "Escape" mechanism that dates back to 2002 Xenon 10s) is that mineral oil absorbtion and oil induced premature ageing / wear is the most common problem.

If the mechanism I have described above is not what you have in a lever bought new in July 2014, I (we) would like to see some images of the internals.


IME powershift internals can just wear out rather quickly regardless of lubricant or vintage of shifter. Arguably plastic (of almost any kind) is not a suitable material for a highly loaded part in the shift mechanism. This may sound a bit mad but I think this wear is also made more likely by the way the controls are used; IMHO a half-hearted prod at the controls is more likely to cause slippage and wear. Campag test all their kit quite well; I would wager that the test machine does not exert a half-hearted prod on the controls.

I also think that the loads on the mechanism are often not anything like campag intended or test for; for example if the front mech is pulled hard against the stop screw when you are on the big ring (a common enough occurrence; dirt under the stop screw can cause this to happen even if the setup was OK to start with), shifting onto the small chainring will impose shock loads on the shift mechanism far outside those intended, and this will wear the plastic parts of the mechanism. If the cable routing experiences variable tension (eg due to frame flex, again not uncommon), high forces can be developed even if the setup is 'perfect'. Again if the cable settles, you might occasionally get 'one click more' in the shifter to get onto the big ring, and again this will develop tremendous forces inside the shifter.

In the worn shifters that I have examined, there have been quite large flakes of plastic evident, so it hasn't just been worn off, it has been carved off in lumps. Obviously if these flakes get into the wrong place, they in turn cause other intermittent shifting problems, well before the shifter claps out entirely. I would expect that some of the bent escapement parts that are seen have not been caused by excessive force, but have occurred because there have been flakes of crappy plastic lodged in the places where the escapement claw is meant to engage, but can't, because it is blocked.

IMHO the mechanism is just a bad design, which takes into account few of the things that routinely occur in service. Campag could fix it by using metal parts in the shift mechanism instead of (yet another grade of) cheesy plastic, or by making the wearing parts in such a way as they could be replaced (the wearing parts would costs pennies to make.... :roll: ) without binning the entire shifter . They have done neither, and until they do, I suggest that you avoid these shifters if you plan to ride your bike very much.

Note also that these shifters are intended to work with mechs that exert a low cable force back into the shifter. Many shimano mechs are not like this, and there are not published specs for the others, so you can have little idea if you are meeting campags specs or not in a shimergo system unless you measure it. Even then a tiny change of some kind (that commonly happens in service as previously described) could result in cable tensions far outside of campag's specs, and trash the shifter.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keezx
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Re: Campag/Shimano mix

Postby Keezx » 21 Mar 2018, 8:55pm

That's why I use exclusively pre 2007 9 and 10 speed Ergopowers, they never gave me trouble the past 8 years and IF they do, I've numerous spares laying around.
Better avoid any Powershift Ergo's.
The 11 speed Ultrashift ones seem also good, but I don't need nor want 11 speed