Campagnolo 12 speed

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Gattonero
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Campagnolo 12 speed

Postby Gattonero » 10 Apr 2018, 9:29am

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/09/ha ... n-details/

I have to say this first thing: do I like it? Nope.

But even if I'm a die-hard Campangolo fan, I'll try to give an opinion that is unbiased, and especially to see the big picture.
So my main point is: did people need 12 speed cassettes? Mostly not. But will a 12 speed groupset sell and make money? Most likely.
And here is the rub.

Campagnolo is a business company, not a charity.
They have to make profits, whether the hard-core-8speed-users* will like it or not.
Campagnolo is a company that operates in Italy and tries to make whatever they can in the country, or in Europe.
Italy is still in deep econmical recession and the cost of workforce is one of the highest out there.
Profits cannot be made in Italy by selling high-volume and low-price parts, like a £20 cassette every two years and a square taper bottom bracket every 10 years.
Right now, profits for Campagnolo can only be made by milking out the heritage and "charme" by selling mid to high range components for "modern" (?) bikes, and selling them often.

If you ask me, I hope that those high-range 12speed groupsets will sell and make more money to fuel a new generation of "niche" components with 10 or 11speed at most, and to keep a reasonable amount of spares for the 9 and 8 speed users.
The only useful thing of those 12speed groupsets is that finally the levers have a reach adjustment, and the brakes with clearance for wide tyres, although as the rest of the parts (rear mech in particular) are quite ugly and with unattractive finish.

In a nutshell, let's hope is a stepping stone for financing some more graceful-looking and more wide-use oriented groupsets. Unfortunately, the money seem to be pushed only in one direction, hopefully this will change.


* I still use Campagnolo 8speed!
Last edited by Gattonero on 11 Apr 2018, 4:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brucey
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby Brucey » 10 Apr 2018, 9:57am

as predictable as night follows day that someone would make a 12 speed road groupset. They are going to have to remake 'spinal tap' now....

Image

with dials that go up to twelve.... :wink:

There is also this piece which says more about the chain

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/09/campagnolo-first-to-12-speed-on-the-road-with-new-record-super-record-groupsets/

'old' 11s chain was 5.5mm wide and the 12s chain is 5.08mm, with the same thickness side plates. Campag have made the sprockets thinner and have ditched the (squashy) plastic spacers for aluminium ones. New chain is claimed to be 'stronger' and despite having narrower space for bushings is claimed to last as long as 11s.

The 12s cassettes have the first seven sprockets with 1T intervals. This is good if you are racing but is a terrible idea if you are not; basically it makes the usual problem with a compact double even worse than normal, i.e. that normal mortals are running badly cross-chained most of the time.

12s rear mech has the dubious distinction of (IMHO) easily being the ugliest (possibly not just the ugliest rear mech but the ugliest thing) that campag has ever made; like the unholy progeny of a SRAM x-series and a cheap shimano, born of a drunken night out... :roll: :roll:

Image

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 10 Apr 2018, 10:30am, edited 2 times in total.
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pwa
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby pwa » 10 Apr 2018, 10:01am

Maybe 12 is the natural climax, with 13 being unlucky.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby Bmblbzzz » 10 Apr 2018, 10:21am

It's hardly a revolutionary step, is it? It's not even the first 12-speed cassette, just the first from a major manufacturer. Hardly on a par with the invention of the quick release or the first parallelogram derailleur. But then things like that don't happen frequently. It's a while since Shimano came up with something as game-changing as indexed gears or integrated brake and gear levers, or since Sram came up with... well, I'm not sure what. It's only a surprise it didn't happen a year or two ago.

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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby Bmblbzzz » 10 Apr 2018, 10:22am

pwa wrote:Maybe 12 is the natural climax, with 13 being unlucky.

Though Shimano did make a Nexus 4-speed hub, despite 4 being an unlucky number in Japan.

reohn2
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby reohn2 » 10 Apr 2018, 10:26am

pwa wrote:Maybe 12 is the natural climax, with 13 being unlucky.

For gear junkies the orgasm is the anticipation of yet another sprocket :?
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iandriver
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby iandriver » 10 Apr 2018, 1:43pm

Campag has been pushing this sort of thing for years. Most people will blame Shimano for it anyway after a while, so they can't lose.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....

De Sisti
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby De Sisti » 10 Apr 2018, 2:10pm

iandriver wrote:Campag has been pushing this sort of thing for years. Most people will blame Shimano for it anyway after a while, so they can't lose.

They win?

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Mick F
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby Mick F » 10 Apr 2018, 2:39pm

Ugly.
Black.
Pointless.
Mick F. Cornwall

mig
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby mig » 10 Apr 2018, 3:22pm

i wonder what they will claim are the benefits.

re. 8 speed campagnolo. it's nigh on impossible to gear a rear derailleur or spares now isn't it? cassettes aren't cheap either.

peetee
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby peetee » 10 Apr 2018, 3:24pm

Ah Campag. I loved the 70's/80's Super Record and later Corsa record designs but the superlative tech of recent iterations has made its range, frankly, hideous. At least, I assume that's the reason. Why else ignore a heritage of design elegance?
It's just as well I can't get on with the ergonomics of the side mounted gear trigger because not having my race bikes decked with Italian kit is a bit of a downer. (still got the S-Record decked Colnago and Condor to re-live the old days though 8) ).
Campag's introduction of 12 speed might be well timed as they have a bit of a marketing mountain to climb. Cycling Weekly recently had a 'Best of 2018 pro bikes' article. The feature includes 10 machines and only one is kitted out with Campag.
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Back on two wheels in deepest Pastyland and loving every minute. Mission: to enjoy big, bad hills again.

hamster
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby hamster » 10 Apr 2018, 6:39pm

Brucey wrote:as predictable as night follows day that someone would make a 12 speed road groupset. They are going to have to remake 'spinal tap' now....

Image

with dials that go up to twelve.... :wink:

There is also this piece which says more about the chain

https://www.bikerumor.com/2018/04/09/campagnolo-first-to-12-speed-on-the-road-with-new-record-super-record-groupsets/

'old' 11s chain was 5.5mm wide and the 12s chain is 5.08mm, with the same thickness side plates. Campag have made the sprockets thinner and have ditched the (squashy) plastic spacers for aluminium ones. New chain is claimed to be 'stronger' and despite having narrower space for bushings is claimed to last as long as 11s.

The 12s cassettes have the first seven sprockets with 1T intervals. This is good if you are racing but is a terrible idea if you are not; basically it makes the usual problem with a compact double even worse than normal, i.e. that normal mortals are running badly cross-chained most of the time.

12s rear mech has the dubious distinction of (IMHO) easily being the ugliest (possibly not just the ugliest rear mech but the ugliest thing) that campag has ever made; like the unholy progeny of a SRAM x-series and a cheap shimano, born of a drunken night out... :roll: :roll:

cheers


That made me laugh out loud. I believe Darth Vader is in charge of aesthetics at Campag these days - agreed, it's all pug-ugly.

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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby scottg » 10 Apr 2018, 6:50pm

Bmblbzzz wrote: It's a while since Shimano came up with something as game-changing as indexed gears or integrated brake and gear levers, or since Sram came up with... well, I'm not sure what. It's only a surprise it didn't happen a year or two ago.


SRAM has the best and fastest warranty spares turn around in the industry, clear leader. :D

I have a 1940ish Osgear SuperChampion, indexed 3 speeds, update-able to 4 speeds (drill another hole in the shift quadrant)
take that Shimano !
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pete75
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby pete75 » 10 Apr 2018, 7:00pm

peetee wrote: Cycling Weekly recently had a 'Best of 2018 pro bikes' article. The feature includes 10 machines and only one is kitted out with Campag.


Obviously only one best of amongst them then. :wink:

Brucey
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Postby Brucey » 10 Apr 2018, 11:02pm

scottg wrote:
SRAM has the best and fastest warranty spares turn around in the industry, clear leader. :D


Not in the UK they don't. Their standards of customer service and spare parts/warranty support (which is via 'dealers' and distributors) have been lamentable for a long time. A few years ago I began to be more enthusiastic about SRAM when I discovered that you could e-mail SRAM in Europe directly and that they would actually do something rather than just give you the run-around. Of course this was too good to last and SRAM no longer offer any customer facing services of this kind directly; back to lamentable standards of customer service. Duh.

I have a 1940ish Osgear SuperChampion, indexed 3 speeds, update-able to 4 speeds (drill another hole in the shift quadrant)
take that Shimano !


can you drill another 9 holes and compete with campag...?? :wink:

cheers
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