Campagnolo 12 speed

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Brucey
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Post by Brucey »

Gattonero wrote: .... Even when setting up the gears in the middle, say 4th to 5th, there's still 3 more each way where the error adds up or down.....


well no, not really; as I explained before only sprockets 2-7 (which is another two each way, not another three) are set by the indexing. #1 and #8 are set by the stop screws.

...use the 2.6mm spacers from Campag 10sp cassettes (the ones that would stay between the 6th and 7th sprocket) plus one of those 0.5-ish thin spacers that are used on Mavic freehubs.


that could work but IIRC the 0.5mm spacers are thin-walled and the plastic spacers will likely indent.

More than one way of skinning a cat (and more than one version of a satisfactory result) for sure. Coke can shims should allow perfection to be attained!

cheers
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foxyrider
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Post by foxyrider »

BrianFox wrote:
mig wrote:what price is this chain i wonder?


£53.

Cassettes are north of £300 (!)(!!)

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/art ... ity-52062/


the 11 speed on my road bike was £450 so £300 is cheap
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Crikey! I usually pay around £30 for a 9-speed cassette.
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speedsixdave
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Post by speedsixdave »

Samuel D wrote:I honestly think there would be a market for a group that was carefully considered, modestly specified (no carbon fibre, probably no more than 9-speed and preferably 8 speed), as customisable as possible (e.g. cassettes sold only as loose sprockets; cranks that support one, two, or three chainrings including tiny sizes for those who want that), beautifully elegant, timelessly designed, fully mechanical (no electrics), made to last, user-serviceable, and guaranteed to be supported by spare parts and compatible new components for a couple of decades.


Have you seen the SunXCD stuff? In some way related to the old Suntour. Not quite everything you desire but not too far away!

https://www.veloduo.co.uk/collections/sunxcd/products/sunxcd-group-set

http://sunxcd.net/
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mercalia
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by mercalia »

Bmblbzzz wrote:Crikey! I usually pay around £30 for a 9-speed cassette.



well I pay about £12 for an 8 speed :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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foxyrider
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by foxyrider »

Bmblbzzz wrote:Crikey! I usually pay around £30 for a 9-speed cassette.


Well it is the rare Ti 11-27 SR which has been running for 4 years so far! (closer ratios are @ £100 less)

It sets me back a wodge for more basic quality cassettes on the other bikes which don't last anything like that length of time, -i've likely spent £250 on cheaper steel cassettes in the same period. I reckon i'll be in pocket before I have to change it. The low wear rate also means that chains last longer, especially a decent KMC XC11 - not actually worn one out yet!

I won't be rushing to go 12 speed but it'll be on the table for my next road bike purchase.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Brucey
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Post by Brucey »

speedsixdave wrote:
Samuel D wrote:I honestly think there would be a market for a group that was carefully considered, modestly specified (no carbon fibre, probably no more than 9-speed and preferably 8 speed), as customisable as possible (e.g. cassettes sold only as loose sprockets; cranks that support one, two, or three chainrings including tiny sizes for those who want that), beautifully elegant, timelessly designed, fully mechanical (no electrics), made to last, user-serviceable, and guaranteed to be supported by spare parts and compatible new components for a couple of decades.


Have you seen the SunXCD stuff? In some way related to the old Suntour. Not quite everything you desire but not too far away!

https://www.veloduo.co.uk/collections/sunxcd/products/sunxcd-group-set

http://sunxcd.net/


I have long thought the same thing as Samuel and I have made similar suggestions in the past. The Sun XCD stuff is nice, but only as nice as vintage Japanese stuff is, more or less. By contrast vintage campag stuff of a certain era is (to many eyes) a thing of timeless beauty.

cheers
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pliptrot
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by pliptrot »

foxyrider wrote:low wear rate
I'd be greatly impressed if these more expensive cassettes did in fact last longer than "ordinary stuff". I have my doubts. Even then I find that I need to replace different sprockets at different times (anyone who tells us that they use all 9, 10, 11, or now 12 sprockets equally is living in lah-lah (perhaps that should now be Campag) land, so it is not so meaningful in any case. I gave up on Campag when their chains came with instructions that they should never be removed or degreased, and just wiped with a cloth (and fitted with a pointlessly expensive and complicated tool). As I said, lah-lah land.
Last edited by pliptrot on 12 Apr 2018, 1:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
pliptrot
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Re: Campagnolo 12 spped

Post by pliptrot »

Bmblbzzz wrote: bear in mind the vast majority of sales for Campag (and probably even more so for both Shimano and Sram) are OEM.

Really? I've asked this question before and no-one seems to know the answer - who does buy Campag? Go to any club or cycling event and it seems that 80% of the equipment seen is Shimano Ultegra. The Campag answer to that group (Potenza(?)) has died on the shelves, I am told. I would love to be wrong, to see a European manufacturer prosper, but it does not look that way. Perhaps all the Campag owners are at home dusting their chains when I go out.
Samuel D
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by Samuel D »

I’m familiar with Sun XCD and have a pair of their cranks.

I think Campagnolo’s market has moved more and more toward after-market sales and high-end custom bicycle builders rather than mass-market OEM stuff in the last few years.

I wonder if this 12-speed stuff is aimed more at the American market. I understand there is a large Masters racing scene there, and road cycling in general has a different (richer) demographic there. Plus, Americans being Americans might have more faith in new technology than Europeans.

In Europe, I don’t see many racers paying £317/€355 for a new cassette, not to mention replacing £400/€449 derailleurs and £445/€498 shifters after a crash. The racers I know in the Paris area are mostly young guys who can’t pay the price of a washing machine for a consumable part. Heck, some of them can barely afford washing machines!

I wish Campagnolo well, but I’d love to see them go back to their roots and take a chance on something beautiful and stubbornly practical. This needn’t come at the expense of the carbon bling and would be a product range with little competition, Shimano having abandoned elegant designs a long time ago. However, I think the top brass is too besotted with ‘innovation’, a catch-all buzzword that replaces critical thinking in many companies today, to consider such a product.

Twelve-speed Record, on the other hand, is launched into the teeth of Shimano’s Di2 and awesome engineering, manufacturing, and sales prowess. As I said, I wish Campagnolo well.
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by Bmblbzzz »

If Campag no longer have much OEM sales then it's probably time to think of the Big Two not Three, with Campag falling into the position of a larger version of eg Hope. Though Hope still make virtually all their own products in Yorkshire, whereas Campagnolo make a lot of stuff in Romania now. In fact it could even be said that Britain is now the home of artisan-style, passion-driven cycle technology companies; Yorkshire people are so romantic!
pwa
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by pwa »

Bmblbzzz wrote:If Campag no longer have much OEM sales then it's probably time to think of the Big Two not Three, with Campag falling into the position of a larger version of eg Hope. Though Hope still make virtually all their own products in Yorkshire, whereas Campagnolo make a lot of stuff in Romania now. In fact it could even be said that Britain is now the home of artisan-style, passion-driven cycle technology companies; Yorkshire people are so romantic!


Romantic about stuff made in the Lancashire town of Barnoldswick?
Brucey
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by Brucey »

pwa wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:If Campag no longer have much OEM sales then it's probably time to think of the Big Two not Three, with Campag falling into the position of a larger version of eg Hope. Though Hope still make virtually all their own products in Yorkshire, whereas Campagnolo make a lot of stuff in Romania now. In fact it could even be said that Britain is now the home of artisan-style, passion-driven cycle technology companies; Yorkshire people are so romantic!


Romantic about stuff made in the Lancashire town of Barnoldswick?


aye, out of damp misery, engineering beauty can clearly emerge; they make RR aero engines there too....

cheers
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mig
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by mig »

Brucey wrote:
pwa wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:If Campag no longer have much OEM sales then it's probably time to think of the Big Two not Three, with Campag falling into the position of a larger version of eg Hope. Though Hope still make virtually all their own products in Yorkshire, whereas Campagnolo make a lot of stuff in Romania now. In fact it could even be said that Britain is now the home of artisan-style, passion-driven cycle technology companies; Yorkshire people are so romantic!


Romantic about stuff made in the Lancashire town of Barnoldswick?


aye, out of damp misery, engineering beauty can clearly emerge; they make RR aero engines there too....

cheers


hope make RR aero engines?!! #removesflatcapandscratcheshead

i trust they make the flanges a bit stronger than they used to then. :wink:

as to the whole 12 sprockets thing i refer the honourable gentleman to the first half minute or so of the below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALNsQpCL8LY
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foxyrider
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Re: Campagnolo 12 speed

Post by foxyrider »

Samuel D wrote:I’m familiar with Sun XCD and have a pair of their cranks.

I think Campagnolo’s market has moved more and more toward after-market sales and high-end custom bicycle builders rather than mass-market OEM stuff in the last few years.

I wonder if this 12-speed stuff is aimed more at the American market. I understand there is a large Masters racing scene there, and road cycling in general has a different (richer) demographic there. Plus, Americans being Americans might have more faith in new technology than Europeans.

In Europe, I don’t see many racers paying £317/€355 for a new cassette, not to mention replacing £400/€449 derailleurs and £445/€498 shifters after a crash. The racers I know in the Paris area are mostly young guys who can’t pay the price of a washing machine for a consumable part. Heck, some of them can barely afford washing machines!

I wish Campagnolo well, but I’d love to see them go back to their roots and take a chance on something beautiful and stubbornly practical. This needn’t come at the expense of the carbon bling and would be a product range with little competition, Shimano having abandoned elegant designs a long time ago. However, I think the top brass is too besotted with ‘innovation’, a catch-all buzzword that replaces critical thinking in many companies today, to consider such a product.

Twelve-speed Record, on the other hand, is launched into the teeth of Shimano’s Di2 and awesome engineering, manufacturing, and sales prowess. As I said, I wish Campagnolo well.


Your point about young racers is quite valid - whist I used to aspire to the best kit as a lad I couldn't afford to buy it. Then as now, the people actually racing on the top gear were either professional racers or older riders with disposable income. Things have changed little.

So who buys this stuff? Yes a lot of older sportive riders with spare dosh burning holes, not just in the US but across Europe where the big three global bike brands have much less of a grip and custom builds using top end kit are seen much more than in Giant/Trek/Spesh dominated markets.

For Campag on OE builds it's a catch 22 - if, say Trek put out a Campag equipped bike it's unlikely to sell well as there is such a bias and lack of knowledge even in the trade. As a result it's unlikely a prospective buyer is going to get any advice that doesn't run along the lines of 'you could get Ultegra for that'.

The likes of Movistar, JLT and Holdsworth may influence a few purchases but with team replica bikes being out of fashion (remember those Raleigh Banana things?) even race success does little to influence the UK market. Maybe if Sky used it there would be some drift down.

Then you get bike reviewers who are so biased towards Shimano, some never having even ridden Campag for comparison - well its a wonder anyone buys anything not from Japan! If you don't know the advantages of Campag how can you review it or sell it?

Who buys it? People who appreciate longevity over disposable bling, who want reliability in the parts they are funding themselves. My Mod 76 SR rear mech still works 40 years down the line and I have Campag bits of various vintage across the stable - I only have a couple of Shimano parts as it breaks so easily (their SPD pedals are the exception).
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
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