Classic Frame Builder Wanted

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
laager
Posts: 15
Joined: 10 Jun 2017, 8:46am

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Postby laager » 19 Apr 2018, 3:54pm

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Last edited by laager on 20 Apr 2018, 12:02am, edited 1 time in total.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6777
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Re:

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Apr 2018, 4:14pm

laager wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Have you ridden one? is it notably better than a uk builder can offer?

Yes, I've owned three and still have one; and yes, better than anything British I've ever ridden.

There's a damn good reason why Dario is legendary. He doesn't cut corners and he doesn't make compromises. He'll make whatever geometry you want, lugged or bare welded. Yes, the frames are quite expensive, but if you know what you want, Dario will build it to perfection for you; and given current trends, in years time will see the frameset worth more on the secondhand market than you paid for it new.

Wait for Dario to die. Then see the price of his framesets skyrocket...

That's cheery.

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Vetus Ossa
Posts: 1055
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby Vetus Ossa » 19 Apr 2018, 5:57pm

If I wanted to spend stupid money, I would buy a frame and stem from....
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6777
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby Bonefishblues » 19 Apr 2018, 6:11pm

Vetus Ossa wrote:If I wanted to spend stupid money, I would buy a frame and stem from....
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/

I like his stainless lugs.

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Vetus Ossa
Posts: 1055
Joined: 22 Oct 2012, 7:32pm
Location: London, Paris, New York but mostly Plymouth.

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby Vetus Ossa » 19 Apr 2018, 6:17pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Vetus Ossa wrote:If I wanted to spend stupid money, I would buy a frame and stem from....
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/

I like his stainless lugs.


You are not alone :wink:

scottg
Posts: 643
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 8:44pm
Location: Highland Heights Kentucky,, USA

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby scottg » 19 Apr 2018, 6:24pm

The best English bikes are made in the USA.
The best French bikes are made in Japan.

These are the good old days of small builders.

Extensive shopping list here.
https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f11/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why not the best, buy Cyclo-Benelux.

sloyd
Posts: 20
Joined: 25 Oct 2016, 12:35pm

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby sloyd » 19 Apr 2018, 6:45pm

Richard Hallett will make you a great frame. His Fast Road is what you want. I have a 650 frame from him and it’s beautifully built with bilaminate bottom bracket, and super light stainless tubing. Worth calling him to find out how long the list is right now. Have a look at http://www.halletthandbuiltcycles.com/

Samuel D
Posts: 2860
Joined: 8 Mar 2015, 11:05pm
Location: Paris

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby Samuel D » 19 Apr 2018, 6:48pm

laager wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Have you ridden one? is it notably better than a uk builder can offer?

Yes, I've owned three and still have one; and yes, better than anything British I've ever ridden.

Better in what way than what British frame?

Dario Pegoretti frames are expensive because making good steel frames wasn’t enough for him and he started doing street-art inspired paint jobs and compelling marketing with the likes of Rapha. I don’t believe most of the hype about custom tube-set mixes and I don’t believe he necessarily does that better than any other competent frame builder. This sort of esoteric obsession is not what I’m after although I can discern the appeal of it.

I like scottg’s take above although ‘best’ is better than you need or want for practical cycling, even passionate practical cycling. The best American builders take the spit and polish to ludicrous levels and that would make me afraid to take the machine out the door. Many Waterford frames and the like appear only to be used for gentle rides on perfect days.

At the hand-made bicycle shows, most of the builders from all countries are trying to get noticed with gimmicks. No thanks. To me the whole point of a classic British frame is its ancient, hallowed, essentially perfect design. Don’t muck that up with experimental cable routing, new (i.e. wrong for steel*) dimensions, or even disc brakes.



* Why do cyclists think a hundred years of heavyweight engineering and subsequent refinement got the dimensions of the classic steel bicycle wrong? This puzzles me as does Shimano’s claim that every new STI has ‘improved ergonomics’, as if they measured the human hand wrong the first time around. Some things don’t change and that includes the basic properties of steel and human hands. That should be respected.

Brucey
Posts: 35577
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby Brucey » 19 Apr 2018, 8:18pm

beauty is as beauty does; when framebuilder 'X' has multiple prestigious race wins, world records, and sees his frames raced under other's colours etc etc etc then you can take it that it may be compared with (say) Raleigh SBDU frames and the like.

Until then it is just another pretty frame, regardless of what journalists etc might say. There are plenty about.

OP has expressed an interest in a frame that is like a Raleigh team professional. Well, this is a plain and simple frame design that is meant for racing; little in the way of frills, almost brutal in its simplicity. It happens also that, once equipped with the right groupset, wheels etc, it is also quite a comfortable frame to ride.

However it won't be if the design has been beggared about with and is made to include a 1-1/8" steerer; arguably just having the weight of the STIs on the handlebars could be enough to make the bike feel different (worse) to ride too. If you fit modern parts without much consideration you again may alter the things that made it such a great bike BITD. For example modern HP rims are usually heavier and stiffer than sprint rims were back then and this affects ride feel too. The main reason for wanting to use modern parts is convenience (you can buy them more easily) and perhaps because it is easier to get a wide gear range. Things like 'more gears' and 'shifters integrated into the brake levers' are of marginal benefit or could be of actual detriment on a bike like this.

I am lucky enough to have owned and raced various 753, SBDU and other similar framesets. They have all been different in various ways, some 'better' (i.e. more to my liking) than others. In any given tubeset quite small differences in steering geometry and particularly frame size make quite large differences in the way the frame rides.

My advice is that if the OP wants a Raleigh team professional, he should get on and buy a real one, while he still can, (and NB don't go buying one and expecting to be able to cold set the back end to a different size if it has been silver-brazed... :roll: ) or have a replica made up by a good builder to as close as the original spec as is possible (including 1" steerer of course).

For components etc on a new build I'd suggest leaving the rear end at ~128mm; this will give you the choice of using 'correct' 126mm wheels and modern 130mm wheels. As a workable/practical compromise I'd think about using a shortened cassette (i.e. 8 from 9 or 9 from 10) on a 7s length freehub body for a 128mm frame and for an original bike (120 or 126mm) find a 5s or 6s UG freehub body and again you can make up a shortened cassette using mostly modified HG sprockets to give 7 8 or 9s depending on which sprockets you use. (NB a 6s UG top sprocket is usually fitted with a spacer; without its spacer it is the exact correct with to work with 9s chain). This kind of approach gives you the choice of using various modern shifters and mechs (if you want to; not that keen myself....)

If you take your 'replica team professional' by the time it is fitted with a 1-1/8" steerer, modern parts, and various differences in the frame tubes to make all this work, you won't (regardless of who built it) really have anything like a team professional any more. Might be a nice bike, but not the same kind of nice bike.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

laager
Posts: 15
Joined: 10 Jun 2017, 8:46am

Postby laager » 19 Apr 2018, 11:46pm

Samuel D wrote:Dario Pegoretti frames are expensive because making good steel frames wasn’t enough for him and he started doing street-art inspired paint jobs and compelling marketing with the likes of Rapha.

Now I remember why I originally gave up posting to cycling forums. Ill informed and argumentative faceless keyboard warriors spoiling for a fight. Pass.

Brucey
Posts: 35577
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re:

Postby Brucey » 20 Apr 2018, 12:08am

laager wrote:
Samuel D wrote:Dario Pegoretti frames are expensive because making good steel frames wasn’t enough for him and he started doing street-art inspired paint jobs and compelling marketing with the likes of Rapha.

Now I remember why I originally gave up posting to cycling forums. Ill informed and argumentative faceless keyboard warriors spoiling for a fight. Pass.


er, pot, kettle.... anyone...?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

slowster
Posts: 938
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby slowster » 20 Apr 2018, 12:37am

Dario Pegoretti is considered by many much more knowledgeable than me to be the greatest steel framebuilder, and I am not aware of any other builders with his pedigree, e.g. builder of the frames for the likes of Indurain and other top riders in the 1980s and 1990s, when almost all frames were steel, and one of the pioneers of using TIG welding for steel frames.

To dismiss him simply because of his artistic leanings or a commercial relationship with Rapha, is shallow, foolish and disrespectful of his experience, knowledge and skill acquired over decades. His bikes attract a premium price precisely because he is considered the best, and that status has also allowed him to indulge his artistic leanings. That inevitably annoys some who would like to knock him off that pedestal (tall poppy syndrome). Moreover, it is less likely that any new steel framebuilders will reach his level because the opportunity to develop the skill and experience by building lots of frames for top riders no longer exists as a result of steel being replaced by carbon as the standard frame material.

If I were seeking a touring or audax bike, I would choose one of the UK framebuilders who has similar levels of experience in building that type of frame, but for a classic steel road race frame if I had the money I would choose Pegoretti - probably the Luigino model which is a traditional style lugged and brazed frame with a 1" threaded steerer.

jrsbike
Posts: 3
Joined: 18 Apr 2018, 9:19pm

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby jrsbike » 20 Apr 2018, 12:56am

As the OP I wish to thank the contributors for their insightful comments. These have been very thought provoking as I began to consider other possibilities and got off track from my original intent. I thank Brucey for throwing the hook out and reeling me back in to my plan. There are so many talented builders in the UK, USA and Italy who are keeping the fire going and I thank them for their commitment. As it happens there is an interesting '73 Raleigh MK IV that has come up locally that I will investigate as well as an early '80s Gios Torino but I shall hold fast and look away from the Italian temptress. If this does not work out then I have excellent resources to draw upon from this post.

Samuel D
Posts: 2860
Joined: 8 Mar 2015, 11:05pm
Location: Paris

Re:

Postby Samuel D » 20 Apr 2018, 8:08am

laager wrote:
Samuel D wrote:Dario Pegoretti frames are expensive because making good steel frames wasn’t enough for him and he started doing street-art inspired paint jobs and compelling marketing with the likes of Rapha.

Now I remember why I originally gave up posting to cycling forums. Ill informed and argumentative faceless keyboard warriors spoiling for a fight. Pass.

Despite this rude goading, I don’t want a fight. What made you think that?

We’re on a discussion forum. If you wish to have claims like “better than anything British I've ever ridden” go unquestioned, you’d be better off with a personal blog and the comments turned off.

I explained why Dario Pegoretti frames are priced as they are, a topic I know something about. It’s not for their intrinsic value as bicycles any more than Tracey Emin’s works are priced by their bill of materials (referring to Bonefishblues’s link). It’s marketing, heritage, personality cult, art, speculation; call it what you will as long as you don’t claim it’s a uniquely good bicycle.

This doesn’t make then bad bicycles and I suspect they’re among the best-made available. They are fascinating to look at and think about too.

But good brazing is not the prerogative of one man. The basic geometry was solved long ago and I don’t want my frame builder to mess that up. I don’t ascribe magical properties to brands of steel tubing or people who speak a certain language. From that stance, Dario Pegoretti’s prices don’t make sense and neither do those of American builders like J P Weigle who’ve taken the American tradition of fine workmanship going back to Ritchey or before to new (and arguably absurd) heights.

slowster wrote:Dario Pegoretti is considered by many much more knowledgeable than me to be the greatest steel framebuilder

Titles like that say more about the bewstower than the recipient. But even if it were objectively true, why does anyone need the best frame in the world? This modern-day obsession with finding the best of everything regardless of price or purpose is acquisitiveness run amok. Don’t fall for it!

slowster wrote:To dismiss him simply because of his artistic leanings or a commercial relationship with Rapha, is shallow, foolish and disrespectful of his experience, knowledge and skill acquired over decades.

Good job I didn’t dismiss him!

slowster wrote:That inevitably annoys some who would like to knock him off that pedestal (tall poppy syndrome).

Maybe, but I hope he lives forever and enjoys ever-buoyant prices.

fastpedaller
Posts: 2072
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Classic Frame Builder Wanted

Postby fastpedaller » 20 Apr 2018, 9:23am

What about a bike from Lee Cooper? (sorry I don't have a link)