Head bearing rust

[hamster]

The threadless version of the Campagnolo Record headset has grease ports in the bottom cup, but not the threaded version. That does seem to suggest that Campagnolo determined that the threadless design was more prone to ingress of water and/or contaminants, and that the problem was significant enough to warrant providing grease ports.

IIRC the older threaded ones also had grease ports but these were deleted as it seems to me that the current threaded ones are largely targeted at track bikes.

[Brucey]

The threadless version of the Campagnolo Record headset has grease ports in the bottom cup, but not the threaded version. That does seem to suggest that Campagnolo determined that the threadless design was more prone to ingress of water and/or contaminants, and that the problem was significant enough to warrant providing grease ports.

IIRC the older threaded ones also had grease ports but these were deleted as it seems to me that the current threaded ones are largely targeted at track bikes.

looking at the spare parts pdfs, the '90s threaded record headset had lube ports top and bottom, but when the first threadless 1" headset came along (in 1997) it had no grease ports and the threaded version retained them on the lower race only. The following year the threadless record headset got grease ports on the lower race too.

In 1" headsets, having grease ports in both threaded and threadless lower races remained the case until at least 2010. Chorus headsets never had them on either race, it seems.

In the mid-noughties, they made a 'conventional' 1-1/8" threadless 'record' model HS00-RETHOS

which had lube ports on the lower race. I think it is no longer current production but if NOS can be found it might make a good choice for Samuel.

Listed here
http://www.gbcycles.co.uk/p/35515/Campagnolo-Record-Threadless-Headset-1-1-8
but not in stock at present. As with all campag headsets with lube ports, the decal ring lifts off the race and allows access to four drillings, which may be greased using a nozzle-type grease gun.

[edit listed as in stock herehttps://www.totalcycling.com/en/Campagnolo-Record-1-18-Inch-Threadless-Headset/m-18895.aspx ]

cheers

[LinusR]

I would say that the ball bearing race is faulty and has not been heat treated properly. A manufacturing fault. Those marks from the rollers should not appear like that. I've had a couple of Stronglight roller bearing headsets that have lasted for years. While they are not sealed very well I've just disassembled the set and regreased and put together again and they work like new. I've never seen the races pitted like your photo.

[Gattonero]

One more reason to choose a headset with cartridge bearings: when the bearing is rusty, replace it and it all goes new with a fiver.
There are however, other implications, like odd sizes chosen for unknown reasons!

[Gattonero]

...
By contrast take the headset on the 'supercommuter' for example. This is a cheap, unsealed 1" threaded headset which had a former life before I got hold of it, then did several thousand miles on a low-pro training bike, (which meant a short head tube and abnormally high loadings). Fitted with loose balls and decent grease, it has done another ~15000 miles (in all weathers) and internally I have little doubt it is just fine; it runs very smoothly and has not required readjustment. The outside of the headset is, of course, going quite rusty.... ...

Except that there are mudguards on the "commuter" bike, and a low-pro is unlikely to be regularly used in foul weather?

Since this headset has the top bearing in good conditions, and the lower is rusty, the answer is quite obvious: spray from the front wheel.
The pitting marks also speak for excessive preload, meaning that installation wan't done properly and/or the headtube and crown race may not be faced/chased at all (even if the forks have a machined top, albeit unlikely, it still can be slightly off), the excess of preload will break the film of lubricant resulting in exposed areas.
A significant amount of rust requires the water to stand there, so it may well be that the bike has not been able to "dry itself up" after riding in wet conditions.

[squeaker]

The grease I use is one for auto CV joints, largely because I had a big tin of it, but also because it seems to be a similarly nasty application.

OT, but IMO if an auto CV joint sees a lot of water then it's got a big problem, as there are no water passages into the joint, unlike an A-head system

[Mick F]

One more reason to choose a headset with cartridge bearings: when the bearing is rusty, replace it and it all goes new with a fiver.
There are however, other implications, like odd sizes chosen for unknown reasons!

My Moulton has a 1" cartridge threadless headset, and it's cheaper to buy a whole new 1" threaded headset and only use the bearings.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/headsets/ta ... et-silver/

[Gattonero]

One more reason to choose a headset with cartridge bearings: when the bearing is rusty, replace it and it all goes new with a fiver.
There are however, other implications, like odd sizes chosen for unknown reasons!

My Moulton has a 1" cartridge threadless headset, and it's cheaper to buy a whole new 1" threaded headset and only use the bearings.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/headsets/ta ... et-silver/

Given that 9 times out of 10 is the lower headset bearing that will rust, it makes sense to choose a headset with easy and cheap to find replaceable parts. Whenever I need them, I get the 41.8mm (Campag compatible) bearings from a shop in central London for £4.99 while other places will charge up to £15 for similar bearings that won't last any longer

You may even get them on Ebay for about £2!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headset-Bear ... 0005.m1851

Though I'd still advise to remove the seal with a stanley knife and overfill them with grease.

[Mick F]

You may even get them on Ebay for about £2!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Headset-Bear ... 0005.m1851

Though I'd still advise to remove the seal with a stanley knife and overfill them with grease.

The ones I find on eBay are too big.
I need 30.2mm for mine. 1" threaded.

I've already filled them with extra grease a couple of times.

[Brucey]

...
By contrast take the headset on the 'supercommuter' for example. This is a cheap, unsealed 1" threaded headset which had a former life before I got hold of it, then did several thousand miles on a low-pro training bike, (which meant a short head tube and abnormally high loadings). Fitted with loose balls and decent grease, it has done another ~15000 miles (in all weathers) and internally I have little doubt it is just fine; it runs very smoothly and has not required readjustment. The outside of the headset is, of course, going quite rusty.... ...

Except that there are mudguards on the "commuter" bike, and a low-pro is unlikely to be regularly used in foul weather?

IIRC I did preface the above remarks with a similar comment about mudguards. But I would also say that if you use the right grease, even unsealed loose ball headsets can last reasonably well on bikes without mudguards.

Since this headset has the top bearing in good conditions, and the lower is rusty, the answer is quite obvious: spray from the front wheel.

Indeed this is the most likely route in Samuel's case but I have also seen very badly rotted headset lower races on bikes that have had mudguards fitted and have just seen lots of weather; in this case the water has entered from above; A-head headsets are terrible for it.

NB you get some spray from the front wheel even with mudguards hence the supercommuter headset is going rusty on the outside. Since I prefer parts that are not rusty, I try and coat vulnerable parts with waxoyl, but not everyone likes the look of it (even if they do decide later on that they prefer it to rust.... ).

The pitting marks also speak for excessive preload, meaning that installation wan't done properly and/or the headtube and crown race may not be faced/chased at all (even if the forks have a machined top, albeit unlikely, it still can be slightly off), the excess of preload will break the film of lubricant resulting in exposed areas.
A significant amount of rust requires the water to stand there, so it may well be that the bike has not been able to "dry itself up" after riding in wet conditions.

In the case of Samuel's headset there may be other factors at work for sure. But then again I have very rarely opened up a headset with roller bearings in it and not found similar evidence or wear and/or corrosion in the lower race. That rate declines to 'about zero' on bikes without mudguards.

Fundamentally (assuming that the parts are not perfectly rigid...) flex etc means that a headset lower bearing must move in all directions, and rollers won't do that very well if they are moving in some directions; the rollers must slide, (instead of roll) some of the time and that means that they will be subject to a displaced lubricant film and fretting wear.

Obviously you can carry on changing cartridge bearings until the cows come home but IME headsets that use such bearings need more preload so as not to rattle, which together with the lower load rating of the bearings, means that they don't always last very well even if water etc doesn't get into them. In other words they are often very likely to clap out regardless. This results in a lot of quite needless effort; by contrast loose ball headsets have been proven to be extremely durable by comparison; once set up properly they commonly require no further attention for tens of thousands of miles at a time. On a bike with no mudguards, even without very good grease (or seals), you can use a grease port to keep the insides happy.

cheers

[Gattonero]

There is a choice to be done beforehand, very much as one would do for the wheel hubs: frequent maintenance and lasting many years, but when things are rusty or pitted the spares aren't cheap; or no maintenance and bin the worn or rusty parts more or less frequently, but when this happens it all goes back as new?

On a pure mechanical point of view, in ideal conditions, there is obviously an advantage in loose bearings running directly on the headset cups: less stack yet bigger balls and more of them, so better load capacity, this also means more lubricant flowing freely around the bearings. Also, the bearings will work in a better alignment which in turn will make their seals working better.
The downside of this is that in real world the servicing of a loose-ball arrangement is nowhere near as convenient as a caged-ball bearing. Given that you want to keep the crown race and the cups races in tip-top shape -as their replacement is often equal to the price of a complete new headset- then frequent disassembly/clean/repack is a must, which in turn means a certain amount of time required, plus a dedicated series of tools.

Truth is that most modern headsets are not comparable to older ones in terms of quality, the vast majority of headsets with cartridge-bearings have them on a fairly slack fit. This is ok when replacing them, especially when the get so much corrosion, but is pretty bad for their longevity.
If we add that most frames won't be correctly prepared to begin with, those cartridge-bearings use balls which are 50% smaller and with a very low (and likely, poor quality) grease fill rate, it's easy to understand why old headsets would last a lot longer.
No design will ever be good when is poorly manufactured and poorly assembled.

[Samuel D]

The pitting marks also speak for excessive preload, meaning that installation wan't done properly and/or the headtube and crown race may not be faced/chased at all (even if the forks have a machined top, albeit unlikely, it still can be slightly off) […]

I was careful to use the minimum preload needed to avoid knocking. The steel frame was prepared by Spa Cycles and the headset cups were installed by them. They do a lot of bicycles and have a good reputation. The fact that I didn’t have to choose between free steering and no knocking as others have reported for this needle-roller headset suggests to me that it was installed squarely.

I like the look of the Campagnolo HS00-RETHOS with the grease ports for the lower bearing. It’s not the cheapest headset but the price isn’t unreasonable if pumping fresh grease through it on a frequent basis would keep it happy through the winter. That would be far quicker than taking apart the assembly every month or two to ensure clean lubricant. Though I’d be amazed if the sealing isn’t better than that of the Tange-Seiki Terious SRN.

The one that PH linked to is the HS00-RETHOS, right? There isn’t another Campagnolo headset that looks the same but is different inside?

[Gattonero]

Al the modern Campagnolo headsets work with the same principle and ostensibly the same parts.
IIRC the 1" 1/8 only came with grease ports, and the rubber cover may be hard to find if cracks/perishes, but essentially it's just the bottom cup machined and has 4 tiny holes. The internals and the upper assembly does use the same principle and is very much like a threadless headset; in fact on the 1" version you can swap only the upper assembly and use the same cups&bearings with a threaded and threadless forks

Surely that won't be so difficult to get it right, in fact I can't see why you had all those problems with the Tange headset?
To be fair, it seems that some people would "feel play" in bearing even when there isn't really (or better, an amount that is practical to feel) and most often to use the front brake and push the bike fore/aft may be deceiving. I have managed to convince a fair amount of people that their headset had no play by using a better system: front wheel removed, bike laying vertical with fork dropouts and handlebars on the floor, one man holds forks and bars steady on the floor, the other tries to rock the bike fore/aft and realizes that despite almost 1mt of leverage there is no play to be felt

Btw, did you headset started to bind-up or get loose when turning only, or it was constant all around?

[Samuel D]

IIRC the 1" 1/8 only came with grease ports, and the rubber cover may be hard to find if cracks/perishes […]

It’s still available here and other places, but who knows about the future.

[…] in fact I can't see why you had all those problems with the Tange headset?

Well, I’m surprised too! But it happened. Something went wrong.

I’m aware of the risk of using the front brake to detect play in the headset. You’ll just have to trust that I was careful to get the bearing preload as good as it reasonably could be. If my efforts and good mechanical feel didn’t do the job right, then I believe the design is unsuitable for cyclists who are mostly less careful and able than I am with these things (although some, like the ones on this thread, are obviously mechanically competent).

Btw, did you headset started to bind-up or get loose when turning only, or it was constant all around?

It feels rough rather than smooth everywhere in the steering arc. It doesn’t significantly bind or loosen at certain angles.

[Brucey]

...- then frequent disassembly/clean/repack is a must....

That has not been my experience; on bikes with mudguards and 1" threaded headsets such as Campag NR (and their many good quality homages such as Tange) with good grease, loose balls and careful setup equals a life of many tens of thousands of miles. I recently took apart such a headset (I had to take the forks out anyway) and it was just fine, despite having been looked at just once before in the previous 50000 miles or so. There didn't seem to be much point in thoroughly cleaning everything since there was no wear or corrosion evident.

On bikes without mudguards a grease fitting in the frame just above the lower race (such as used to be a standard fitting at one time) allows the bearings to be purged every now and then if you don't trust your grease/seals. The campag grease ports in the 'record' headsets are probably more efficient than that. [ BTW If the decal ring is lost, a zip tie (or tape, or a piece of inner tube, or w.h.y.) can makes an effective replacement.]

BTW with minimal modification 1" threaded headsets have been used for 'Rinko' bikes and to my surprise many use a loose ball headset with good quality ball clips to aid this process. It can't be that difficult to service these headsets if their disassembly is just one small part of a fifteen minute operation....?

Concerning clipped balls, ease of assembly aside, these are often less effective than loose balls because;

- there are fewer balls which means the load bearing capacity of the headset is reduced,
- the balls are always evenly spaced in clips, which seems to help in establishing a regular wear pattern (eventually resulting in the 'indexed headset' syndrome)
- occasionally the clips break up and this makes a mess of the headset

But having said that, Campag clips are well -filled so can leave you short by ~1 ball or none (depending on the model) and others such as tange usually leave you only ~1-3 balls short. In such clips (that are near to 'full complement') the balls can usually hit one another before they bear hard against the clip, so clip breakage is made somewhat less likely.

In cheap headsets the clipped balls are spaced more like those in many cartridge bearings, i.e. very much more widely, in which case you can nearly double the load bearing capacity of the headset (and/or dramatically reduce the likelihood of clip failure) by fitting better clipped balls or loose balls. If you are fitting loose balls and can't be bothered to take the whole front end apart, (eg if there are lots of fittings that make removing the forks a bit of a palaver), you can usually drop the forks an inch or so, then simply cut the ball-clip to remove it, before fitting loose balls.

cheers