Another Shimano lockring question - Ultegra 11 spd

[Mick F]

I changed my Tiagra 10sp 11-23 for a 105 10sp 11-28.
The Tiagra didn't have a shim with its lockring, but the 105 one did.

I have since ditched the shim from the 105 lockring as it was a pain, and there's no issue whatsoever.
No idea where the shim is now. Probably went in the bin.

[gxaustin]

How odd. My 105 cassettes don't have a shim but the replacement 5800 lockrings sold by J E James do have a shim

[Brucey]

At least some Ultegra lockrings are aluminium rather than steel, which may be what the emperor means by ‘delicate’. More daft gram-saving …

With any screw thread, I start by applying slight axial pressure while screwing it backwards until it clicks, then screwing it in. That way you know you’re not cross-threading it.

yes the latest ultegra 11s ones are aluminium.

Reversing the lockring before tightening it is one of the ways that helps to prevent cross-threading. Using a tool of any kind with a long handle on it to start a part that is easy to cross-thread is more like the other thing.

cheers

[Mick F]

How odd. My 105 cassettes don't have a shim but the replacement 5800 lockrings sold by J E James do have a shim

As I said, I ditched the shim (item 2 on the 105) and it's made no difference whatsoever.

[Brucey]

in fairness you don't know that it has made 'no difference' unless you have actually measured the clamping force on the sprockets.

cheers

[aoxomoxoa]

Well who'd have thunk a thread on such an esoteric topic would have gone to two pages.

To update, my LBS is getting the spacer/shim thingy by tomorrow and for £1.99 I'll soon find out what difference, if any, it makes.

Thanks one and all.

[Mick F]

in fairness you don't know that it has made 'no difference' unless you have actually measured the clamping force on the sprockets.

I meant it's made no difference in use.
If Tiagra don't have one, and the outer sprockets are the same, why bother?
Both the 105 and the Tiagra 11t sprockets are Y1Z81100N

The lockrings are the same except one says 105 on it, the other just says "Shimano" on it.

[Brucey]

things like the number and type of spacers in the cassette make a difference to how squashy the stack is and therefore what clamping force is developed with serrations of a certain size (i.e. with a stiffer stack, having big serrations is a bad idea and a shim is a good idea). The ideal requirements for the clamping force itself also vary with freehub body material, sprocket design, sprocket material, sprocket size and intended use.

Just for fun, try tightening a brand new (i.e. unused) shimless lockring against a cassette with all metal spacers on a steel freehub body. Then try with a pair of chain whips on sprockets and see how easy it is to get movement within the backlash. I expect you to find that the sprockets move around a bit too easily.

'No difference in use' means little until you have done a few miles under high torque conditions. You will very likely find that carrier-less sprockets are busy chomping into an aluminium freehub body and are moving around on a steel freehub body. The latter takes a long time to de any real harm (on a steel freehub body) but it is likely that the transmission is made less efficient whenever the sprockets are able to move around.

FWIW I think that a good portion (I'd guess about half) of all cassettes in use are not clamped properly and are moving around on the splines in normal service.

Another test you can do is to see where the lockring sits with and without a shim vs the timed spline. If the clamping force generated is the same with both, then the only difference will be due simply to the thickness of the shim. I don't expect you to find that result.

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

FWIW I think that a good portion (I'd guess about half) of all cassettes in use are not clamped properly and are moving around on the splines in normal service.

Another test you can do is to see where the lockring sits with and without a shim vs the timed spline. If the clamping force generated is the same with both, then the only difference will be due simply to the thickness of the shim. I don't expect you to find that result.

cheers

Judging by the bikes that I have broken for spares, probably true on tightness of lockring.

Sorry to ask again I have never seen a cassette above 8 speed as I don't ride such and might never buy one, so the spacer / shim fits clamped on the faces between which bits? and what faces, ta.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi
OK, fits under serrations?
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/s ... y1pj98010/
So you replace every use...........................

[Brucey]

if you are lucky then you get a few goes with the shim intact. Often by the time the shim falls apart the teeth are worn/deformed smaller anyway and the shim isn't so important any more.

FWIW I think it would all work OK if the bearing faces of the lockring/sprocket were smooth and a little threadlock was used on the lockring threads.

If the serrations were really important to stop a fully tightened lockring from unscrewing then one might perhaps expect the UG system (with a threaded top sprocket to secure the cassette) to be unreliable for users who didn't use top gear and therefore retighten the cassette regularly. However I don't recall that being a problem.

cheers

[Mick F]

'No difference in use' means little until you have done a few miles under high torque conditions.

Same cassette since six days after buying the bike except I've replaced the outer 11t twice. Rest of cassette is the same.
Originally I had the Miche hub, and replaced it with a SA 3p CS-RF3 2,000miles later.
The bike has now done 4,750miles and probably climbed 475,000ft. (difficult to extract exact ascent data at the moment but I can do if I took the trouble) Usual and normal for me at 100ft per mile. Torque enough for me thank you.

The Miche - alu body - doesn't look bad at all. Just a few very small marks on the drive-side of the splines.
The SA - steel body - is completely unmarked .......... or it was when I last looked at it during cassette cleaning only 200miles ago.

[Mick F]

PS
I'm not going the put a new shim on for £2 every time I take the cassette off!
Mine come off every couple of hundred miles or so.
I like a clean transmission.

[Mick F]

I finally extracted the Moulton info.
4,832miles since new in March 2017
Total ascent is 517,404ft

Making 107.07ft per mile.

Torque enough for me.

[The utility cyclist]

Please can someone advise whether there should be a spacer between the lockring and the first sprocket (11 tooth) on an Ultegra 11 spd cassette (11-32T). Thanks.

No, not a spacer, not on Dura Ace, Ultegra nor 105 11 speed, currently using all three.