Shimano 12-speed

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belgiangoth
Posts: 1657
Joined: 29 Mar 2007, 4:10pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by belgiangoth »

Sweep wrote:My only concern about this mad path (am happy for others to follow it) is reduced availability of 9 speed bits.

idem.

To be fair though, I have been using 1x for the last 15 years and think it suffices, in fact I have been riding 1x2 pretty much exclusively and I only have the second gear in case the cog snaps. On the next bike I probably won't bother.
If I had a baby elephant, I would put it on a recumbent trike so that it would become invisible.
Samuel D
Posts: 3088
Joined: 8 Mar 2015, 11:05pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by Samuel D »

These poor guys stand to lose real money when this sort of thing happens, since their results are the basis of their contract negotiations.

It’s hard to justify why we’ve got to this stage, with bicycles failing seemingly more often than ever while technological progress should dictate the opposite. A silly state of affairs. It’s not even good publicity at this point, is it? Though P T Barnum did say something about bad publicity …
hercule
Posts: 1156
Joined: 5 Feb 2011, 5:18pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by hercule »

It's all old hat. My 1985 Saracen came with Shimano 12 speed gearing. It still works perfectly (though at the moment the bike is wearing a Nexus 8 speed hub gear).

:lol:
StephenW
Posts: 158
Joined: 22 Sep 2010, 11:33am

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by StephenW »

I think perhaps these cassettes with very large sprockets and lots of gears could be useful for recumbents, although I am sure this is the last thing the designers had on their minds!

I have a few reasons for thinking this:

-Recumbents benefit from having low gears, but using very small chainrings to achieve this can result can result in undesirable flex in the frame. This is because using a small chainring results in high chain tension. Achieving the same gear ratio with a larger chainring and larger sprocket avoids this. I find that the feel of my recumbent changes a lot when I shift from the 32 to 22 tooth chainring - it becomes noticeably mushy.

-Cross-chaining is no problem on a recumbent, as the chain is so long.

-There is no reason not to offset the rear wheel on a recumbent. I think on an upright offsetting the frame too much could give bad chainline or cause heel clearance problems. On a recumbent neither of these is a problem.

However, from my point of view it is a shame that they have managed to have lots of gears by making everything thinner. I would prefer that the sprockets were the thickness of 8 or 9 speed, and the hub were made proportionately wider to fit them all in. The frame could then be offset to give an undished wheel.
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by thelawnet »

Slight update on this, it's a bit of an embarrassment for SHimano, as they have no hubs or cranks still, and they might never get them.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos- ... lable.html

* the crank is not yet ready so you can't have the system "North American customers can expect to find new XTR complete groups at retailers around the first of March. In our market, we’ve chosen to hold off on shipping XTR components because the crank set hasn’t been available. Since several of the performance gains with the new XTR group were achieved through a system engineering approach, it’s not so easy to sub in another crank. Specifically, the inner plates on the chain being extended out beyond the roller are responsible for the improved driving efficiency and chain retention of the crank. That chain plate also plays a key role in the smooth Hyperglide+ shifting across the cassette even under extreme load while accelerating."

" As expected though, we’ve heard that the riders who have bought those components have struggled to find an acceptable crank solution. The new XTR chain might not fit on some chain rings at all. On others, it might vibrate while pedaling or wear out extremely quickly. If they switch to a different chain, the Hyperglide+ shifting goes away and at that point it really just isn’t an XTR group anymore."

They have a replacement crank which is not as good as the one they can't mass-produce, but still you should upgrade, honest guyz, even with a downgrade crank

"The production process for the crank still needs refinement. It’s a good design, but mastering the mass production of it has proven difficult so we need more time to work on it. As a remedy, we’ve added a new crank to the line-up that falls in-between the performance and quality of the previous generation XTR and the new M9100 XTR group. It uses our tried and true hollow forged crank arms but it will use the direct mount chain ring that goes with the new group. "

The much-vaunted 'scylence' hub is useless and has been cancelled:

"We have indeed had to go back to the drawing board on the design of Scylence - this one isn’t just a production issue. We still have faith that the concept can work and we’ll continue developing the technology, so if it’s possible to make it happen one day we definitely will.

"The XTR hub actually won’t change much from the original design, we just need to keep the driver plates in contact with each other. The model number changes to FH-M9111 "

The 11-speed cassette has also been cancelled, despite it being popular, because they can't manufacture it with everything else.
scottg
Posts: 1218
Joined: 10 Jan 2008, 8:44pm
Location: Highland Heights Kentucky,, USA

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by scottg »

Sram started promoting 1x gearing since they can't figure out
how to make a front derailleur that works with their
double tap shifters. :D

Velo Orange or Rivendell should make new clangers,
perfect for 1x users, who'd like to add a 2nd ring.

Back when Britain made bicycles, 1x5 was all anyone needed.
Me, I have a 2x5 with a Simplex Tourist clanger, best front changer
short of Di2.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Deutsche Luftschiffahrts-AG
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by Jamesh »

Well it won't go to 13spd since that will be unlucky!! :D :D
zenitb
Posts: 832
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Shocked !!!!!!!

Post by zenitb »

thelawnet wrote:Slight update on this, it's a bit of an embarrassment for SHimano, as they have no hubs or cranks still, and they might never get them.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos- ... lable.html

...

The much-vaunted 'scylence' hub is useless and has been cancelled:

...


This is stunning news thelawnet..thanks for posting!
Shimano, the masters of production engineering, are cancelling a launched flagship product..huge loss of face surely?

I actually liked the look of the Scylence hub. When you think about it though Shimano have been pumping out their all conquering Uniglide/Hyperglide freehubs for around 35 years. This is probably their replacement design for the next 35 years so I suppose they have to get it right...

Perhaps they need to get the 1982 Uniglide design team out of retirement to show them how its done..
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shocked !!!!!!!

Post by thelawnet »

zenitb wrote:
thelawnet wrote:Slight update on this, it's a bit of an embarrassment for SHimano, as they have no hubs or cranks still, and they might never get them.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos- ... lable.html

...

The much-vaunted 'scylence' hub is useless and has been cancelled:

...


This is stunning news thelawnet..thanks for posting!
Shimano, the masters of production engineering, are cancelling a launched flagship product..huge loss of face surely?

I actually liked the look of the Scylence hub. When you think about it though Shimano have been pumping out their all conquering Uniglide/Hyperglide freehubs for around 35 years. This is probably their replacement design for the next 35 years so I suppose they have to get it right...

Perhaps they need to get the 1982 Uniglide design team out of retirement to show them how its done..


Well they still have the new microspline system to replace hyperglide, so that's not going away; what's gone is the freehub mechanism

There appears to be a 7g weight penalty for the revised hubs, and slower engagement (9 vs 7.6° max)

There is some suggestion that the cancelled mechanism has patent issues, though I'm not sure with whose patent.
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by thelawnet »

Shimano have added FH-MT500/MT510 to their lineup. These are the non-series microspline (12 speed) freehubs at roughly Deore level, with steel freehub body. Also wh-MT501 12 speed wheel


They have also added sm-crm85 and crm75, which are the XT and SLX 12 speed chainrings.

No other non-XTR 12 speed yet, but obviously coming to both SLX and XT.

Not sure what they will do with Deore.
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by Brucey »

well if you have messed up your premium product, it is a question of 'dribble up' rather than 'trickle down' technology.... :roll:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thelawnet
Posts: 2736
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by thelawnet »

Yes they haven't wasted much time competing to compare numbers with SRAM after the rather botched launch of 12-speed XTR, there's now 12-speed XT (M8100) & SLX (M7100). Availability is June/July.

The details:

* the XTR & XT shifters are basically identical. As with previous generations, SLX is effectively Deore level in terms of features (no instant release, only 3 shifts at once, no double upshift). All three levels have 'mono' left shifters for those of us who want a double chainset (no triple option) rather than a 1x
* the increasing availability of 4-piston brakes continues, as now there is an SLX 4-piston caliper, which should be identical to all the other Shimano 4-piston calipers
* XT & SLX have slightly lower gearing than XTR - you get 36/26 chainsets for SLX and XT rather than 38/28 as on XTR, and the single options are 30-38t on XTR, 28t-36t on XT, and 30-36t on SLX.
* The cassettes are a fair bit heavier, at 461g (10-45) and 470g (10-51) for XT, and 513/534g (SLX) compared to 356g/367g on XTR.
* The SLX & XT rear derailleurs are similar to previous generations with SLX lacking the better jockey wheels, but capacities are identical

It does make 11-speed Shimano MTB stuff rather obsolete, though perhaps they will send it to Deore soon enough.
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by zenitb »

thelawnet wrote:

...
FWIW:
SLX drivetrain 1x11 £337 RRP reduced to £223 on CRC
....

This makes 11-speed look a bit silly at the moment, as you've just got SLX at 11-speed, BUT the solution for Shimano is fairly obviously to 'upgrade' Deore to 11-speed and Alivio to 10-speed, so they've then got two groupsets each at 9-speed, 10-speed, 11-speed and 12-speed. With a 'mainstream' 11-speed groupset, they can subtly market to people that their perfectly functioning 9-speed is now horribly out-dated and in need of replacement.


Useful post thelawnet

I note there are no SLX 135mm OLD hubs anymore ... its either 142mm, 148mm (BOOST), or a (new?) 157mm size.. good job I have a hoarded 135mm one !!! :-)

I wonder if we are going to get touring/trekking bikes starting to use Micro Spline hubs rather than Hyperglide at some point ? Currently you would need 142mm (through-axle) rather than 135mm (QR) spacing on your bike's rear dropouts ... but I suppose Surly is already there on that one ...

I suppose the question is - will Shimano eventually move their useful FH-Txxx "trekking" series of hubs (eg FH-T670) over to Micro Spline, and if they do, what hub spacing will they adopt ?
random37
Posts: 1952
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 4:41pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by random37 »

My MTB has a 7 speed hub. I think that's a lot, frankly.
random37
Posts: 1952
Joined: 19 Sep 2008, 4:41pm

Re: Shimano 12-speed

Post by random37 »

zenitb wrote:I suppose the question is - will Shimano eventually move their useful FH-Txxx "trekking" series of hubs (eg FH-T670) over to Micro Spline, and if they do, what hub spacing will they adopt ?

Call me a reactionary, but I wouldn't want such such hard to acquire parts on a bike that was used in the middle of nowhere. I think that with cassettes, the more you spend the less longevity. Certainly as a user of 7spd cassettes I would prefer to get the cheapest rather than the lightest. On my bikes, I simply cannot tell the difference in shifting between an XTR cassette and a Sunrace one.
I think I'm going to stockpile some 7spd 135mm hubs. I don't want to own things I can't fix myself, or have to buy Shimano components and nothing else.
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