Changing tyre sizes...

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TheNissanMan
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

Planet X don’t hand around! Tyres arrived today while at work and are now sitting on the bike waiting for a ride after work tomorrow :) I guess I needed the practice as had to put both the front and rear on twice as realised i’ld Put them on the wrong way around!!! To make it worse and to show how inept I am I had to put the front on three times as after taking it off to put the right way are I put it on the wrong way again!!!

Will try 45 psi front, 65 rear to start as feeling very solid with those pressures!
TheNissanMan
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Joined: 28 Apr 2018, 10:49am

Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

Now I’ve got the tyres on and before I give them a run a couple of questions just popped into my head!

1) As with a car tyre do bike tyres have a run in period where they aren’t as grippy initially? If so what sort of distances are we talking?

2) Looking at tyre pressures in general I’ve pumped them up to 45f 65r, would there be any benefit to 100 on the rear and keeping the front low or would this introduce some odd handling characteristics? This is where my logic may be skewed. My thought process is that having a higher pressure in the driven weight bearing wheel would help minimise effort in attaining speed while having a lower front would retain more comfort or would the high difference in pressures make the front more like to be unstable?


Cheers in advance.
reohn2
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by reohn2 »

TheNissanMan wrote:Now I’ve got the tyres on and before I give them a run a couple of questions just popped into my head!

1) As with a car tyre do bike tyres have a run in period where they aren’t as grippy initially? If so what sort of distances are we talking?

Some people think the release solution from the tyre making process needs to be scrubbed off Hypers before they begin to grip well.
Personally I've never found that to be the case,but if it makes you feel better wiping the tread of the tyre with some White Spirit on a rag would remove any slippery solution on it,or ride the bike on a gravel path or forest road.

2) Looking at tyre pressures in general I’ve pumped them up to 45f 65r, would there be any benefit to 100 on the rear and keeping the front low or would this introduce some odd handling characteristics? This is where my logic may be skewed. My thought process is that having a higher pressure in the driven weight bearing wheel would help minimise effort in attaining speed while having a lower front would retain more comfort or would the high difference in pressures make the front more like to be unstable?


Cheers in advance.

Tyres need to be pumped up with air to support the load they carry,hence the tyre drop chart.
Too much air for load in a tyre results in less tyre patch contact with the road which in turn means less grip and less comfort.100psi in a 38mm supple quality tyre such as Hypers is between 30 to 40% too much for the load you're imparting on it.Such a high psi will also cause the tyre to cut more readily on sharp road grit or gravel particularly if you live in a part of the country with a lot of small flints on the road surface.

I reckon your 45f/65r(that's what I ride mine at with an all up weight of rider,bike and day bag of 98kg) is a little low and reiterate my advice I gave up thread to try 55f/75r combination with a view to perhaps lowering the front by 5psi should the front end feel slightly skittery,but I wouldn't advise going above 75psi in the rear.
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slowster
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by slowster »

The key point about 'faster' tyres on the bike, is that they absorb less energy when the rubber deforms under the pressure of your weight. That generally means that the tyres are supple/flexible (especially the side walls). The only way to compensate for the energy absorbtion of 'slow' inflexible draggy tryres is to pump them up very hard so that they deform less under your weight, which results in a harsher/less comfortable ride, which will tire you out prematurely anyway.

The Hypers hit a bit of a sweet spot in still allowing you to run the tyre at a pressure which is comfortable and absorbs road buzz from less than billiard table flat road surfaces, like 'chip and seal', while doing so without constantly absorbing lots of energy as the tyre constantly deforms. Most tyres which are very flexible/supple are narrow racing tyres (which require higher pressures anyway because they are so narrow that the road/tyre contact patch is quite small). The Hyper is a bit unusual in being a wide supple tyre.

In other words, pumping up the Hypers till they are rock hard will lose the benefits of using them.
TheNissanMan
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

Thanks guys, now cant wait to get out of the office and go for a ride, a couple of hours yet so will see this evening...
TheNissanMan
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

What a difference, I was shattered after a long day in the office so gave it a miss last night, couldn’t sleep this morning so straight out of bed no food or drink and a quick 11 mile circuit. My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help. I also found I was less out of breath and taking on less fluid although that could be a lower temperature playing a large part.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1628605621
Samuel D
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by Samuel D »

TheNissanMan wrote:My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help.

Yup, that’s the sort of difference I would expect in this case. Nice.

London to Brighton will still be a good challenge, I’m sure!
reohn2
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by reohn2 »

Samuel D wrote:
TheNissanMan wrote:My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help.

Yup, that’s the sort of difference I would expect in this case. Nice.

London to Brighton will still be a good challenge, I’m sure!

Yep agreed :)
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TheNissanMan
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

Amazing the difference to be fair, the route I took this morning was longer than my normal route with some slight inclines and a bigger one at the end so suspect it may get better still. Am popping the bike in for a service this afternoon as clicking quite a bit from the cogs which I suspect is adding a bit of further resistance which will get sorted... every little helps lol.
thelawnet
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by thelawnet »

Samuel D wrote:
TheNissanMan wrote:My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help.

Yup, that’s the sort of difference I would expect in this case. Nice.


The OP has reduced perhaps 10 watts rolling resistance from the tyres. Most of the increase is likely to be psychological. Also good chance previous tyres were underinflated, so that will make a difference as well.
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horizon
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by horizon »

horizon wrote: But for someone in the OP's position, more riding is the best preparation and better tyres might just be a false hope. I'm not questioning the idea of better (faster) tyres in general, just this person on this ride.


TheNissanMan wrote:What a difference. My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help. I also found I was less out of breath and taking on less fluid although that could be a lower temperature playing a large part.


I'm happy now. :) Although there might be other factors at play ...
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
TheNissanMan
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by TheNissanMan »

thelawnet wrote:
Samuel D wrote:
TheNissanMan wrote:My average speed has increased from 10.3mph to 12 which over any distance will help.

Yup, that’s the sort of difference I would expect in this case. Nice.


The OP has reduced perhaps 10 watts rolling resistance from the tyres. Most of the increase is likely to be psychological. Also good chance previous tyres were underinflated, so that will make a difference as well.


Possibly, previous tyres were similar pressures after reading the forum so like for like ish, difference quoted was based on strava segments, even on the shorter sectors which generally are rolled rather than pedalled the difference is small but notable.
slowster
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by slowster »

TheNissanMan wrote:Am popping the bike in for a service this afternoon as clicking quite a bit from the cogs which I suspect is adding a bit of further resistance which will get sorted

Before you take it to the shop, I would suggest you see if you can:

a) figure out the cause of the problem yourself, and if so
b) fix it yourself

Even if you don't succeed, you will still have learned a bit about how your bike works, and if you still have to get the shop to fix it, you can then ask them what the cause was and you will be better able to understand it, and so may be able to fix it yourself next time.

Most of the components on bikes are fairly simple to adjust yourself. Although some tasks do require specific tools, much of it can be done with just a few allen keys.

'Clicking from the cogs' sounds like the rear derailleur might be slightly out of alignment, most probably because the shifter cable has stretched a bit.

Have a look at the bike from the rear: is the derailleur's jockey arm directly underneath the cog the chain is on, or is it a bit offset (towards the next smaller cog)?

It might be easier to identify this (or whatever else the problem is), if you can spin the pedals with the bike stationary and look at the derailleur/jockey arm and chain position). Ideally you would have a stand to hold the bike (or someone to hold the bike, lift the rear wheel up and spin the pedals while you look at it from behind, or turn the bike upside down and rest it on some grass and then spin the pedals), but even without those you should be able to have a go at diagnosing the problem. If you are reasonably stable/confident on the bike, you could find an empty bit of road, ride along slowly and look down between your legs at the jockey arm, which may also show you if it's slightly out of alignment relative to the cog above on which the chain is running.

If that's what the problem is, it's easy and quick to fix: where the cable enters the rear derailleur, there will probably be a threaded barrel adjuster (if not, there will be one also at the other end of the cable where it exits the shifter). Unscrewing the barrel will increase the effective length of the cable outer, thus compensating for any lengthening of the cable inner due to stretch. You could try simply unscrewing the barrel adjuster half a turn at a time, then riding a short distance and changing gears up and down to see if that fixes it. If you count the number of half turns, you can simply return it back to its original position if that proves out not to be the cause.

Knowing how to adjust and fix something like that will pay off in the long run: you might need to fix a fault in the middle of nowhere, and ideally you want to use the bike shop only for the more complex/tricky stuff where the work requires both more expertise and specialist tools.
Last edited by slowster on 10 Jun 2018, 12:05pm, edited 2 times in total.
reohn2
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by reohn2 »

TheNissanMan wrote:
thelawnet wrote:
Samuel D wrote:Yup, that’s the sort of difference I would expect in this case. Nice.


The OP has reduced perhaps 10 watts rolling resistance from the tyres. Most of the increase is likely to be psychological. Also good chance previous tyres were underinflated, so that will make a difference as well.


Possibly, previous tyres were similar pressures after reading the forum so like for like ish, difference quoted was based on strava segments, even on the shorter sectors which generally are rolled rather than pedalled the difference is small but notable.


And the difference is accumulative.
The longer time spent on the same bike fitted with quality,supple,easy rolling tyres set at optimum pressures,the less the overall fatigue of the rider.
So,say in the last 20% of a long ride the rider feels fresher which translates into forward motion and not into energy wasted in tension in the upper body caused by the fatigue of uncomfortable,harsh and sluggish tyres,this is more noticeable on the typical chip n seal and bad roads we've come to expect of UK roads.
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Samuel D
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Re: Changing tyre sizes...

Post by Samuel D »

thelawnet wrote:The OP has reduced perhaps 10 watts rolling resistance from the tyres.

I bet it’s a lot higher than that (although that would already noticeably affect speed).

But to be picky, rolling resistance is a force, not measured in watts. Reporting it in watts implies assumptions about load and speed. For the Bicycle Rolling Resistance (BRR) website, those assumptions are 29 km/h with a 42.5 kg load. In these conditions, the Voyager Hyper was tested at 17.7 W.

Adjusting from 29 km/h to 19.3 km/h (TheNissanMan’s 12 MPH) puts us at 11.8 W. But applying Tom Anhalt’s correction factor of 1.5 × when going from test drum to real roads puts that back at exactly 17.7 W. That’s per tyre. Since TheNissanMan’s rear load is likely to be higher and the front load lower than 42.5 kg, the differences about cancel out. So we can double that to get total power used to overcome rolling resistance. That’s about 35 W.

BRR hasn’t tested low-end Kenda tyres as fitted to new bicycles, but the two Kenda tyres they did test (here and here) had staggeringly high rolling resistance, which matches my perception of the Kendas that came on my girlfriend’s city bicycle – unbelievably draggy things.

A fairly big man riding a hybrid with draggy tyres at 16.6 km/h (10.3 MPH) takes in the vicinity of 80 W. Increasing the speed to 19.3 km/h needs about another 25 W. To get that from the tyres needs a reduction of 12.5 W per tyre. A glance at this chart shows several expensive tyres about 12.5 W worse than the Hyper, i.e. tested at about 30 W. Cheap Kendas are very unlikely to be any better.

People often doubt that tyres have a large effect on performance, but they do, especially at low speeds. When I changed my girlfriend’s cheap Kendas to Voyager Hypers her average speed on day rides that we did together went up about 2 km/h overnight, albeit at low speeds. The test figures fully explain why.
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