3-cross 32 spoke wheels, which spokes?

[belgiangoth]

Grab opposite sides of the wheel by the rim, twist in opposite directions with each hand. Rotate repeat.

[Brucey]

... if i did get the ERD wrong and it IS 596, that could change the spoke length for the rear to 290.3. I should still be okay with 290 though, I would have thought.

+1mm on ERD = + 0.5mm on spoke length

cheers

[531colin]

Grab opposite sides of the wheel by the rim, twist in opposite directions with each hand. Rotate repeat.

If the angle of the spoke elbow isn't exactly right, then the elbow is flexed (stressed) to a better angle by spoke tension; also the elbow will flex each revolution as the spoke is unloaded.....thats the "stress" which "stress-relieving" is designed to alleviate, and its alleviated by briefly raising each spoke tension well above what it is in actual use. I can't think how "twisting the rim" might do that.

[MikeDee]

I use Wheelsmith spokes. I think they are better quality than DT and have also had less breakages/problems with them too. Never used Sapim.

[Brucey]

I use Wheelsmith spokes. I think they are better quality than DT and have also had less breakages/problems with them too. Never used Sapim.

You speak from the USA? Well one end of each DT spoke you might use is made in the DT factory in Switzerland, and the other is typically made by the USA agents for DT. AFAICT nearly all DT spokes sold in the USA are cut and threaded there from longer blanks, using (I think) Phil Wood machines. Having used such machines myself, I can tell you that making spokes of uniform length or even uniform thread quality is by no means assured; it is reliant on the machine setup and the skill of the operator.

By contrast I have used tens of thousands of spokes from boxes that were sealed in DT's Swiss factory and they have been of very consistent length and quality. I once found a spoke with no thread on it and that was very memorable because it hadn't happened before (and didn't happen since, either).

Wheelsmith spokes seem OK to me but I have not used very many of them. It would be difficult to break fewer spokes than DT in the wheels I have built, because that number (despite that others know that I would be really interested to see any broken spokes they might have in wheels I have built) is, er, zero.

I see spokes of all makes that have broken in wheels that other folk have built and the #1 cause of breakage seems to be a lack of decent stress-relief. BTW you need more, better, stress relief if the spokes fit in the hubs less well, and/or to use spoke washers. Similarly when you build the wheel you get to choose if the spoke makes a bad angle into the rim or not, and if you do anything about it.

cheers

[MikeDee]

Interesting articles on the Wheel Fanatyk blog https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/

[belgiangoth]

Grab opposite sides of the wheel by the rim, twist in opposite directions with each hand. Rotate repeat.

If the angle of the spoke elbow isn't exactly right, then the elbow is flexed (stressed) to a better angle by spoke tension; also the elbow will flex each revolution as the spoke is unloaded.....thats the "stress" which "stress-relieving" is designed to alleviate, and its alleviated by briefly raising each spoke tension well above what it is in actual use. I can't think how "twisting the rim" might do that.

This site suggests a number of methods

Method 1. Perform this once only, just after you have got a fair amount of tension in the wheels. Where the "heads in" spokes exit the hubs – take the plastic tipped hammer and tap the spoke bend a little flatter. This does not take much effort. You can also use your thumb to flatten this curve when lacing these "heads in" spokes. They will reach the rim easier and better. You're actually bending the spoke where it exits the hub. You need to do this so that the spoke contains no residual tension due to this curve. Verrrry important!

Method 2. Perform this after every "round" of truing or tensioning. Grasp parallel pairs of spokes on each side – one pair in each hand - while wearing leather gloves and squeeze them in the hands as hard as you can. Go all around the wheel once.

Method 3. Perform once. Take the screwdriver handle and slightly twist the final spoke crosses around each other. Be gentle here. Place the screwdriver handle in the final cross and above it, press down slightly and twist the two spokes around each other. This is not really a "twist" but just a slight, very slight bending. The spokes will do this themselves if you don't do it but then they might lose a minute bit of tension too.

Method 4. Do this after each "round" of added tension - press down into the final spoke crossing, from the rim side of the cross, towards the hub. I use an old screwdriver handle for this (it's my nipple driver above). Use a screwdriver handle, an old LH crank or a wooden dowel (like a 6" piece of old broom handle).

Method 5. Do this once after you have a fair amount of tension on the spokes. Take a thin punch and a hammer. Tap the head of each spoke to seat the head squarely in the hub flange. I said "tap"................not "pound the [inappropriate word removed] out of". We're just seating the head in the flange and aligning the head.

Method 6. Place wheel flat on floor with the rim part nearest to you touching the floor. A piece of cardboard or carpet will prevent the QR from scratches. With hands at 9 & 3 o'clock, press down gently but firmly and quickly. Rotate wheel 1/8th turn & repeat for one full turn of the wheel. Turn wheel over and repeat. The pings you hear are spokes unwinding. But if you have identified and removed all twist, as outlined above in the section "Spoke Twist......" there shouldn't be any left. Check for true afterwards. Repeat this after each stage or "round". You can't repeat this one too often.

http://miketechinfo.com/new-tech-wheels-tires.htm

[Brucey]

I would recommend some methods over others because they are more effective and I would not recommend some to a novice because it is very easy to do more harm than good when using them.

The method I use isn't on your list.

cheers

[belgiangoth]

pray tell

[Brucey]

I grasp two pairs of crossings (one on each side of the wheel) and push them towards one another. It is hard on the hands, this, but you can't really overdo it with the vast majority of (26" to 28") builds, so it is almost idiot-proof (it would have to be, if I use it..... ).

I think it leaves a less bad kink at the nipple than the 'squeeze parallel pairs' method, and helps to 'set' the spokes at the hub end too.

cheers

[belgiangoth]

Sounds like a mix of the parallel spokes and the pushing the cross towards the hub.

Amusingly I just did this to the wheel before reading this.

[531colin]

So much folk lore and superstition surrounds wheelbuilding.
If anybody wants to know what they should do, and more importantly why they should do it, my recommendation is to read Jobst Brandt on the subject. Brandt wrote an exemplary text on wheelbuilding, you could consider it a masterpiece in instruction how to write a textbook, as well as in wheelbuilding.
About the only piece of folklore in Brandts book is a piece about driving the spoke crossings towards the hub with a screwdriver handle. Uncharacteristically, Brandt doesn't say why he does this, and I have never done it in my life.
Brandt recognises the need to "improve the spoke angle" at the hub, he describes bending the spokes outside the flange to contact the flange better. I also made a habit of similarly bending the spokes inside the flange, sometimes with a tool. (a bit of old crank with a groove filed in it)
I used to tap the spoke heads with a punch and light hammer, just so they lie flat to the spoke flange. Brandt doesn't mention this, as far as I recall. Until arthritis intervened, I used Brandt's stress-relieving method of squeezing near-parallel pairs of spokes. These days, I press the last spoke crossing from the outside inwards*, but when the wheel is almost at final tension, not when its only half-tight. I never bothered too much about the spoke angle at the nipple, its usually OK except maybe small rims and big hubs, failure there is uncommon in my experience.
My final repeating cycle was "stress the wheel, true the wheel, balance the tension, repeat, repeat...until you get a stable wheel with a good compromise between trueness and evenness of tension. "Stressing the wheel" in this context meant placing the axle end on the floor and leaning all round the rim, which (as above) un-pings the spokes. The un-pinging is unimportant, but giving groups of spokes an additional load for a moment settles them in, as evidenced by the need to do a bit of fine re-truing afterwards.

*by resting the crossing on a wheel and leaning on the rim

[belgiangoth]

I have Brandt's book, which I have read. Stress relieving does get a lot of different views though - I think it was Sheldon who talks about taking an old crank to the crosses...

[Brucey]

driving things down the crossings can do more good than harm (or vice versa) but it is difficult to keep the overload equal in both sides of the wheel at the same time. It thus often puts an uneven (i.e. bending) load into the rim quite unnecessarily, as do many other methods, to a greater or lesser extent.

It also (along with Brandt's method of squeezing parallel pairs of spokes and quite a few others) puts an unfavourable bend (if any) into the spoke near the nipple. Very many wheels require that the spoke bends as it enters the nipple and if this bend is not matched perfectly to that required then the spokes become most likely to break there once you have stress-relieved the wheel properly otherwise.

BTW driving things down the crossings puts low-cycle fatigue loads into the spokes at the mid-section and often deforms the spokes permanently. Of the techniques that do generate a decent overload in tension (not all methods do) it is one of the ones that has potentially high levels of collateral damage.

The biggest danger with the method I use is arguably that you won't use enough force. Like I said before, it is hard work.

cheers

[belgiangoth]

Would it not simply be easier to stress relieve by cycling for 10 miles and then re-truing?