4x spoke pattern

[mattsccm]

I'm stumped and I don't know why. Just how do I laCe up a wheel with a 4x pattern. Have always used Sheldons method for 3 but it doesn't convert.
Actually it's for a 1922 motorcycle but the principle is the same. Spokes are the right length as I copied the old ones but the wheel was unlaced when I got it.

[Cyril Haearn]

Have a look at existing wheels or pictures of them

There are plenty of threads on here about spoking

Besides, Brucey will be along soon. He knows almost everything

[tatanab]

Not sure I understand the problem. The start spoke goes in the same place, after that it is just a case of how many spokes you want to cross. I do 2, 3 or 4. I do not know Sheldon's method. The way I learned about 30 years ago was to fit all trailing spokes on both flanges, twist the hub to the approximate angle and start fitting the leading spokes (leading/trailing I don't remember which comes first) crossing as many spokes as you require. I've never built a motorcycle wheel, only trued one up.

[Brucey]

motorcycle wheels are odd ones because you can't always expect to bend the spokes when fitting them, so the wheel usually has to be built in the right order. As with a bicycle wheel that uses a steel hub it isn't a bad idea to re-use the spoke holes in the hub flanges and this can be an invaluable guide to lacing the new wheel.

Motorcycle and car wheels are usually built with the wheel horizontal and the hub and rim supported separately. The first task is to identify an inside lead spoke (next to the valve hole).

Most motorcycle wheels with conventional flanges are built 'symmetric' i.e. the inside spokes are all leading or all trailing, like this;



In a few cases you can build the wheel one side at a time but in most cases the spokes are longer than the flange separation which means that if you lace one side at a time then the crossings on the first side mean that you cannot easily fit the inside spokes on the second side.

Thus there are at least three methods that can work;

1) build the wheel by fitting all the inside spokes first (tip; if you overtighten the inside spokes (having fitted all of them with just a couple of turns each to start with) and the spokes are not too long, you will be able to swing the outside spokes into position without scratching the rim. Having fitted all the outside spokes, you can back off the nipples on all the inside spokes to equalise the nipples inside vs outside).

2) fit all inside spokes to the first side of the hub but lace six key spokes (3 inside and 3 outside i.e. crossing one another) on that side, lash the remainder of the inside spokes to the hub at full tangent, and expect to have to move the three crossing spokes as you fit some of the inside spokes on the other flange. (tip; again temporarily overtightening these six spokes can mean that the spokes on the other side of the wheel can all be swung into position without scratching the rim (provided they are not a tight fit in the hub drillings). Also the wheel will be able to support itself on the rim as you lace the second side from the top). The advantage of this method is that the hub is 'timed' to the rim correctly from the start.

3) fit all the spokes to the hub first, and lash them together, (e.g. in overcrossed pairs) as required. If you can support the hub separately from the rim then you can raise the hub far enough to lace spokes on the uppermost flange without scratching the rim.

It is very much easier to lace motorcycle wheels if the spokes are (by bicycle standards) 'a bit too short', i.e. if you look to replace a single outside spoke, it is easy; the spoke is short enough that it won't interfere with the rim as it is swung into position. Because the nipples are so much stronger than they need to be, they don't often fail even if the spoke doesn't come all the way into the nipple as is desirable in bicycle wheels. If they are not like this then you need to slacken all the spokes on one side of the wheel (or bend the spoke) in order to fit just one new spoke.

cheers

[cycleruk]

Just to add a note and is obvious once you see it.
The spokes don't actually touch each other as in bicycle wheels. None of the spokes twist in and out of each other.
So as Brucey shows fit the inside spokes first.
There are Utube videos showing how to spoke motorcycle wheels but I couldn't find any 4 cross.

[mattsccm]

Sheldon's method for 36 does trailing first leaving 3 empty holes between each spoke. That only allows 3 cross. Or at least as far as I can see. Did that, spokes too long. Moved trailing ones along one to next spokes hole which gave me 4 x but the leading ones haven't moved so are still too long. Spoke length correct. Much like cycle wheel as very old wheel takes 26" tyre. Need a pic with detail I guess or instructions. Have yet to find any.

[mattsccm]

Tatanab has the method I am using. Do I still leave a 3 hole gap in the rim after the first side of trailing or do I miss more. That can't be right.

[Brucey]

Tatanab has the method I am using. Do I still leave a 3 hole gap in the rim after the first side of trailing or do I miss more. That can't be right.

If you at least trial fit a few of the crossing spokes on the first side (as per my method 2) then you can't go wrong.

cheers

[tatanab]

Tatanab has the method I am using. Do I still leave a 3 hole gap in the rim after the first side of trailing or do I miss more. That can't be right.

Always 3 holes (on a pedal cycle rim) regardless of number of crossings. On a motorcycle rim the holes are much more staggered to each side, I only played with old style rims like WM2, but it is still 3 holes TOTAL between spokes, i.e not 3 holes on one side.

[mattsccm]

So the 3 hole gap is fine then. Ta. Cannot compute Bruceys method. Brain works funny like that. I'll just keep playing. Easier to know that m/c wheels don't go over/under.
Just lacing as per Sheldon but crossing 4 has given me tight spokes on second (leading) spoke but trailing which are threaded first haven't changed. Maybe I haven't rotated hub in relation to wheel properly.
Wish I had one to copy.

[Brucey]

...Wish I had one to copy.

the picture I posted upthread is a x4 built motorcycle wheel. You can see very clearly that the 'inside' spokes are all trailing and that the crossings are (of course) not braced.

If you follow the method used for a bicycle wheel you are quite likely to end up unable to get all the second side spokes in position without bending or scratching stuff. At which point my suggestions may start to make more sense to you.

cheers

[mattsccm]

Sorted thanks to combination of above, especially me looking at that pic! Thanks.
Funnily enough it did go with the spokes interwoven as a bike wheel buts its a very old and narrow wheel. Took them out and did it properly. Now to get the supposedly new rim straight. Ta folks.