Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

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RickH
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby RickH » 28 Jul 2018, 3:55pm

foxychick wrote:I thought that after about about 1000 miles that fitting a new chain would also require new sprockets and chainrings as well because a new chain does not work with old sprockets and chainrings?

Not long ago I swapped chains after about 1500 miles. That's on a 10-42 1x11 setup! The new chain is running smoothly on all sprockets & the old chain is well within wear limits so I will probably put that one back on eventually (another 1500 miles?) and alternate them.

reohn2
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jul 2018, 4:30pm

foxychick wrote:According to the kmc website you should never use a degreaser or chain bath as it may damage the chain and make it prone to breaking, anyone had this happen to them or thoughts on this issue?

My experience of leaving the factory grease on the chain is that it attracts road grip and wears chainrings and cassettes out quicker,so I degrease the chain and use a light lube(TF2 aerosol).I always lube a chain after a ride so the lube soaks in and dries on the chain's surface and doesn't attract dirt the same as lubes and greases that stay wet attract dirt and turn it into grinding paste.
If chains are changed at 0.75% wear cassettes outlast at least three or four chains,Chainrings last at least 20,000miles IME.
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Jul 2018, 6:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Mick F » 29 Jul 2018, 9:04am

reohn2 wrote:If chains are changed at 0.75% wear cassettes outlast at least three or four chains,Chainrings last at least 20,000miles IME.
It's not cassettes as a whole that wear out, it's the smaller cogs especially if you use them. I know some folk hardly ever use their higher gears.

My 53t and 42t on my chainset have done over 40,000miles and I can't see them ever wearing out. The inner 30t was replaced by a 28t a few years ago so not much data on that. May yet fit a 26t instead.

My plan is to fit a Shimano cassette instead of my usual Campag. You can buy replacement individual cogs for Shimano at very reasonable prices, but Campag individuals are prohibitively expensive so you need to buy a complete cassette.
Mick F. Cornwall

foxychick
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby foxychick » 29 Jul 2018, 11:03am

Wow mick 40000 miles and still going strong what brand and model of chainset is that?

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Mick F
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Mick F » 29 Jul 2018, 12:34pm

Campag Chorus Triple.

It helps having a clean chain that's unworn. The mere idea of using a chain that's at 0.75% worn fills me with horror.
I have a 39" steel rule and use that to measure my chains. If they get to much above one eighth of an inch elongated over 39" they get retired - though I've still worn out the small 12t and 13t cogs ............ needing a whole new cassette. I'm on my fourth Campag cassette over the 40,000+miles.

The chainset is mated with a Chorus BB and that's done the same distance, but I had to replace the two drive-side bearings some few years ago. (There's three in there - two on the drive side, and one on the non drive-side)
Mick F. Cornwall

foxychick
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby foxychick » 29 Jul 2018, 12:44pm

40000 miles you must be fit as a butchers dog and have calfs of steel mick.

reohn2
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby reohn2 » 29 Jul 2018, 12:56pm

Mick
I think we've been through this before in the dim and distant past,but 40k miles for nearly four cassettes is about the same as I get out of m cassettes (approx 13k miles per custom 14/32 cassette)though I go through more (cheaper Sram 971) chains at approx 4 to 4.5k miles per chain.
40k miles for chainrings is remarkable,I can only think Campag chainrings are as good as their chains.

I seem to remember Meic doing a cost comparative between Campag and Sram chains and whilst Campag chains lasted longer there was no overall gain cost wise due to them costing more to buy,at almost double the cost of the higher quality Sram equivalent.
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Debs
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Debs » 29 Jul 2018, 1:16pm

I use a 'Park-Tool cyclone' chain scrubber - with rear wheel removed and 'Pedro' chain keeper in place.
fill with degreasant, clamp on the chain and back peddling type.

My chains get cleaned 2 or 3 times a month, with chain on bike [ too much hassle to remove them each time IMO ]

I've found a superb degreaser product call FUZE, which works better than anything else i've tried that's water soluble and; so not too environmentally unfriendly.
The chain cleaner is simply rinsed out with water after, allowed to dry for half and hour or so helped with kitchen towel,
and each roller link given a droplet of muc-off wet chain lube.

I've done this for years without a problem, and my chains last very well.

Image

5 Litre = £14.95
https://fuze-products.co.uk/shop/bike-degreaser

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Mick F
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Mick F » 29 Jul 2018, 1:59pm

foxychick wrote:40000 miles you must be fit as a butchers dog and have calfs of steel mick.
It took me a dozen years!
Debs wrote:My chains get cleaned 2 or 3 times a month, with chain on bike [ too much hassle to remove them each time IMO ]
Chains come off in less than 30secs.
Back on slightly more - 45secs maybe.

reohn2 wrote:Mick
I think we've been through this before in the dim and distant past,but 40k miles for nearly four cassettes is about the same as I get out of m cassettes (approx 13k miles per custom 14/32 cassette)though I go through more (cheaper Sram 971) chains at approx 4 to 4.5k miles per chain.
40k miles for chainrings is remarkable,I can only think Campag chainrings are as good as their chains.
Yes, we have been round this on many an occasion. :D

It's been the 12/13/14t sprockets that have worn, and the Moulton has worn out the 11t cog three times so far. Done just over 5,000miles on it. Rest of the cassette seems fine. Good job I found that I could buy them cheaply, so bought three at one go.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... 31?lang=en
May buy another three soon, as I have only one left. (worn out the original plus one - second new one on now)

As for wearing a chainring, as far as I can work out, they would only wear hooked if the chain was elongated enough. As mine never have been very much, the teeth are fine. I use ALL my gears, so not one chainring (or sprocket) is favoured above the others.

The fewer the teeth, the more the loading per tooth. 53t chainring vs 12t sprocket. Yes, one is Zicral and the other very hard steel, but there's no contest. Hard as they are, 12t will not last long, and goodness knows how 10t cogs get on.

I may go for a different cassette for Moulton next instead of 11-28 for one that doesn't use anything smaller than 12t - as I have high enough gearing now that the bike has a SA3sp as well as a 10sp triple.
Mick F. Cornwall

Brucey
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Brucey » 29 Jul 2018, 3:49pm

it is worth mentioning that when you are riding on (say) 53/11 the loadings on each tooth, if they appear one at a time (i.e. they are not shared between teeth) are the same, because they are each at the end of the same piece of chain. The difference is that

a) there is more chance of load sharing at the 53T end
b) the articulation angle is much greater at the 11T sprocket (about 33 degrees)
c) the teeth on the 11T sprocket see loads almost x5 more often than those on the chainring.

Under high speed/constant tension conditions (chain speed at least ~0.44m/s on an 11T sprocket I think, neglecting tension generated through gravity and the RD spring), the chain rollers can fly out to a radius on the sprocket that is determined by the wear condition. In any event they are pulled out to this position, (under load) before each roller departs each tooth. Assuming that the rollers are not a slack fit when the chain is new, the point the roller bears against varies as the chain wears, i.e. the rollers try and 'climb the teeth'.

This has the effect of concentrating the wear on the 11T sprocket teeth and spreading it out on the chainring teeth. Thus a ~1% worn chain sits about 1mm further up on each tooth on a 53T chainring but only ~0.2mm further up on an 11T sprocket tooth. Obviously if you don't let the chain wear more than 0.5% these values are halved, and so forth.

Anyway, even if (say) the amount of material removed from each tooth was the same (between a 53T ring and an 11T sprocket) this would mean that the profile of the 'hook' so formed could be x5 as deep on the sprocket than on the chainring, simply because of the way the wear is spread out differently.

Note also that the chain rollers move (under load) up the tooth face on a small sprocket (such as 11T) more often than not. This movement under load also causes more wear to occur.


BTW I have quite a few aluminium chainrings that are tens of chains (i.e. ~30000 miles) old and one or two steel chainrings that have lasted over 50k miles. Eventually the teeth wear to the shape of 'little daggers'.

cheers
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NUKe
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby NUKe » 29 Jul 2018, 5:50pm


Had a look at this awhile back, it doesn’t last long is my problem with it. I did wonder if their homemade lube would work. So dipping the chain in hot wax and then use the chain lube after that. Anyone tried the homemade chain Lube?
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Gattonero
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby Gattonero » 29 Jul 2018, 6:39pm

foxychick wrote:What is the best gear to be in when using one of these? I have 8 cogs at the rear and 3 chainrings at the front. According to the kmc website you should never use a degreaser or chain bath as it may damage the chain and make it prone to breaking, anyone had this happen to them or thoughts on this issue? Thank you in advance for any replies.


Usually is best to keep the chain with little tension, like when in the small ring and small sprockets; in you case the middle ring and one of the smallest sprockets will be the best choice, because of leaving enough space between the lower branch of the chain (that's where the chain-cleaner is attached) and the chainstay of the frame.

What KMC says is nonsense, one has to be completely clumsy and making things very wrong to get a chain "prone to break" just because of degreasing. According to the number of commuters -3 out of 5- that I see with a squeaky chain in London, there should be hundreds of cyclists pushing their bikes with a broken chain! :lol:
Truth is, the most important part is not only to remove the grease, but to expel it completely and o correctly lubricate the chain after.

I have been using a few of those "chain-cleaning" devices, some can be a bit messy and some are not.
All do require a flush and purge of the chain from the grub anyway, and all are recommended if you cannot/don't want remove the chain. I.e. the use of a "quick-link" allows you to use a common tray or bottle with degreaser and brush, which takes longer and needs a lot more solvent, but will allow you to clean the chain only without spilling degreaser near the bottom bracket or the freehub (the degreaser can leak in and damage the lubrication of those parts), plus you can flush the chain with a high-pressure hose.

I can use dedicated facilities, so a good chain device like the Muc-Off that uses only 30ml (!) of degreaser to clean a chain does not make a mes around, and is easy to flush the dirt with water and a detergent. And because there's so little solvent used this means won't drip in the bottom bracket or rear hub. It takes only a couple of minutes to have the chain clean even inside the links, something that takes longer if using a brush by hand.

But whether you use a "chain-cleaner" or a tray+brush, the best results require to use an air gun with a compressor, to blast away the remaining dirt form inside the roller. This is the only way to make sure there's no dirt/grit in the area where the chain wears (pins and rollers), but will obviously need a space with enough ventilation and all the other common safety precautions.

Some mention ultrasonic cleaners. I am not keen on spending money in something like that, the cost will be more than what a few new chains will be; also is pretty slow and may not be very effective if compared to a simple tray with gasoline where the chain is left overnight, though is safer and usable indoors.
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foxychick
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner And Chain Cleaning

Postby foxychick » 29 Jul 2018, 6:49pm

Thank you gattonero for the very detailed reply this is the information that i was looking for in the first place.

De Sisti
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Re: Chain Bath Cleaner

Postby De Sisti » 3 Aug 2018, 9:45am

Mick F wrote:Invest in a removable quick link for the chain.
Take the chain off and drop it into a jar with a tight-fitting lid. Tupperware sort of tub is good.
Pour in a degreaser. Gunk, white spirit or whatever.
Tighten the lid and shake the jar.
Keep doing it until your arm aches, then swap arms.
Repeat until you are bored or tired.
Fish the chain out and wash it in hot soapy water.
Rinse in hot fresh water.
Hang it up to dry.

It it's not clean enough to eat your dinner with ............. repeat the above.

^^^
Works for me. I use paraffin as my degreaser.