Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

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iow
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and AUBISQUE

Postby iow » 1 Aug 2018, 8:43am

531colin wrote:Ovalising tubes makes a huge difference to the relative stiffnesses; I reckon its worth about a gear on my Elan compared to my round-tubed tourer.


that's very interesting. worth a gear in relation to what - speed, flex?
thanks
mark

bgnukem
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby bgnukem » 1 Aug 2018, 11:41am

Question for Colin:

I liked the look of the Spa Elan very much as I've been looking for a light-ish, fast-ish bike with decent tyre and mudguard clearance for a while but sadly they don't make the bike in a large enough size for me - 58cm is the biggest.

I'm also now interested in the Aubisque and it seems it is available as a 60cm frame, but the Spa website states the frameset is only available up to 58cm. Is it possible to order a 60cm frameset and is there any geometry information available, as I am concerned with toe overlap and need to know the front centres dimension?

Also, does the stiffer fork for disc brakes mean a much harsher ride than say the rim-braked audax frameset?

Cheers,

Ben

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and AUBISQUE

Postby 531colin » 1 Aug 2018, 4:16pm

iow wrote:...........that's very interesting. worth a gear in relation to what - speed, flex?
thanks

I wonder if I will regret writing that?
Its difficult to explain. I have owned a couple of (cheap) bikes which were irretreivably leaden. ....flog your guts out all day, the only time you felt the things accelerate was if you let the brakes off down a steep hill.
The Elan is the opposite of that...push the pedal, and its off. On a rising road, it feels like for the same effort, I'm a gear higher on the Elan than on my round-tubed Tourer. Some of it is in my head, of course, but to-day was second day out on my own Elan, and I was leaving behind some of the people I usually ride with.

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby 531colin » 1 Aug 2018, 4:51pm

bgnukem wrote:Question for Colin:

I liked the look of the Spa Elan very much as I've been looking for a light-ish, fast-ish bike with decent tyre and mudguard clearance for a while but sadly they don't make the bike in a large enough size for me - 58cm is the biggest.

I'm also now interested in the Aubisque and it seems it is available as a 60cm frame, but the Spa website states the frameset is only available up to 58cm. Is it possible to order a 60cm frameset and is there any geometry information available, as I am concerned with toe overlap and need to know the front centres dimension?

Also, does the stiffer fork for disc brakes mean a much harsher ride than say the rim-braked audax frameset?

Cheers,

Ben

Geometry is now on the website....you won't get overlap.
I imagine its a typo. that says you can't buy one frame size.
A sensibly-designed disc fork will always be stiffer than a sensibly-designed fork for rim brakes.
The difference between a 58 and 60 cm frame is notional.....what are you looking for? Long reach? High bars? Thre front end of the 58 Elan is higher than the 60 Aubisque. (sum of fork length and head tube)
To get sized up, go to Spa and ride the test bikes!

bgnukem
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby bgnukem » 1 Aug 2018, 6:12pm

Hi Colin.

Thanks for the reply. Couldn't find any geometry info on the website yesterday so will have another look.

I need a larger frame than 58cm as otherwise I have too much seatpost showing. E.g. My commuting bike is only 57.5cm (bought 20 years ago) and I need a 450mm seatpost to make it fit. My winter bike is 64cm. It really annoys me how many manufacturers won't make bigger frames than 58cm so there's very little choice for people of my size.

Overlap's a big worry of mine with size 13 feet, usually 32mm tyres and mudguards. I had a Mercian frameset built in 2007 which turned out to have overlap and I had to sell it a year later after a few near misses maneouvring at low speeds.....

Getting to Spa is easier said than done as I'm in Somerset, but do travel to York 6 or 7 times a year so will need to call in some time and look at the frame. Spa don't seem too keen on answering e-mails.

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby 531colin » 2 Aug 2018, 10:48pm

bgnukem wrote:………. It really annoys me how many manufacturers won't make bigger frames than 58cm ...........

Let me explain how it works. Spa's Elan is built round a full-carbon, tapered steerer, cyclo-cross disc fork. I can only get this fork in 45mm offset, with a 350mm steerer. This means I can go down to a size 50cm before toe overlap is unavoidable, and I can go up to a 58cm before I run out of steerer. This means the bike will fit people (who want a fairly conventional riding position) from about 5' 2" to about 6' 5". If I could find this fork in longer offset and longer steerer, I could make the bike fit down to about 5' and up to maybe 6' 7". If you can source such a fork, please don't be shy, tell us where.
bgnukem wrote:…... My commuting bike is only 57.5cm ……. and I need a 450mm seatpost to make it fit. …. there's very little choice for people of my size...……...

I'm about 5' 10", and I ride a 54cm with about 10cm of seatpost showing.
I'm going to assume that when you say you need a 450mm seatpost, you mean a 300mm post isn't long enough, so you have say 25cm showing?
So your saddle is roughly 19cm higher than mine, so you are either seven feet tall, or you are looking for an extreme riding position?
You haven't really got 40cm of seatpost showing, have you?
bgnukem wrote:……….. I'm in Somerset,...…….

So, local to you, you have Thorn and Charlie the Bikemonger?
I really think you need to go to one or two bricks and mortar bike shops, maybe get a bike fit, certainly test ride some bikes. Internet sites and E mails just don't do the same thing.

JamesE
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby JamesE » 3 Aug 2018, 12:18am

bgnukem wrote:I'm also now interested in the Aubisque and it seems it is available as a 60cm frame, but the Spa website states the frameset is only available up to 58cm. Is it possible to order a 60cm frameset

Give 'em a ring. Looks like someone's simply made a mistake putting the data onto the website and so it says 58cm where it should say 57cm and 60cm. Spa build up all their own-brand bikes from the framesets on the premises, so I can't see why they wouldn't have 60cm frames available or sell you one if you asked.

bgnukem
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby bgnukem » 3 Aug 2018, 11:54am

Thanks for the reply Colin. Interesting that the available carbon fork dictates the size of the frame! I guess that's one advantage of the steel-forked models! I can appreciate the need for a longer steerer as I use 40 degree stems on all my bikes to get the bars up (but still below saddle height) even on my 64cm Dawes frame.

As for frame size, my commuter bike is 57.5cm and yes I require a 450mm seatpost to ensure enough 'post insertion in the frame. I'm 6'5 but have long legs in relation to my height, around 36.5", and also ride with the saddle quite high. There's very little choice of 450mm seatposts and so I'd prefer at least a 60cm frame so I can use a 400mm post. This would also allow me to use a Cane Creek Thudbuster suspension 'post which I'm keen on, having fitted one to my winter bike. Incidentally, does the Aubisque frame use a standard 27.2mm 'post diameter?

Frankly if I go for fitting sessions at local bike shops they're just going to try to sell me one of their own bikes and I'd rather choose my own frameset and then build it up to my own specification. I like unfashionable components anyway like touring triple chainsets and 7/8/9-speed kit, straight bars, etc so can't get what I want off the peg.

When I'm next in York later this month I'll have a little ride over to Spa and check out the frameset in the flesh.

amediasatex
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby amediasatex » 3 Aug 2018, 12:44pm

bgnukem could you give us an actual on-bike measurement of BB -> saddle top in cm as I can't see how your maths is working out?

36.5in inside leg is 92.7cm
a 57.5cm frame + 450mm seapost, with 100mm in the frame means 57.5cm + 35cm = 92.5cm from BB centre to saddle rail clamp, assume another 20mm (racy thin thing) to 60mm (brooks B17) of saddle height, lets be super conservative and assume only 20mm, that gets you to 94.5cm from BB to saddle top.

Which would mean when sat on the saddle, with your legs dead straight dangling they are still 2cm short of reaching the BB, lets give you 20mm of shoe thickness and assume you know reach the BB, but that still leaves the cranks, another conservative assumption of 170mm cranks means you're 17cm short of reaching your pedals, even if you point your feet down straight down it seems unlikely you could pedal like that.

Using the oft quoted Lemond method* of 0.883 x inseam would yield about 32-33 inch from BB to saddle top for someone with your length legs, lets assume that's conservative and you need a full inch more, which would be unusual but not unheard of, 34in is roughly 86.4cm, lets call that 86.5cm for ease.

86.5cm - 57.5cm = 29cm
29cm - 2cm (saddle thickness) = 27cm

And lets whack a full 100mm into the frame, that would mean you need, at worst, at 370mm long post, which does negate the use of a 350mm post unless you're happy with only 80mm insertion, and if any of my 'worst case assumptions are out you might actually be able to get away with the 350mm posts, but a 400mm post should work fine, and they are plentiful.

Does the above all work out or have I made a glaring error? I'm not trying to be awkward or catch you out I just can't see how you need a 450mm post to make that frame work and trying to understand :? The only thing I can think of is if your 57.5cm frame is a 'virtual' measure on a compact frame with a seat tube that's actually significantly shorter than that, is that it?

I've had to fit some quite tall people on to bikes over the years and only twice come across people who genuinely needed a 450mm post, the first one was a whisker under 7 foot tall, and the other was determined to use a frame 2 sizes too small for him, and he was the same height as you.

* which I don't believe in but gives us a rough ballpark as a starting point for example purposes.

PH
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby PH » 3 Aug 2018, 1:39pm

bgnukem wrote:When I'm next in York later this month I'll have a little ride over to Spa and check out the frameset in the flesh.

Sounds like the best plan. leave plenty of time and have a good ride. I don't get that some people are happy to spend a huge chunk of money on a bike and resent a few quid on a day out to get it right.

dragonrider
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby dragonrider » 3 Aug 2018, 1:40pm

bgnukem wrote:Question for Colin:

I liked the look of the Spa Elan very much as I've been looking for a light-ish, fast-ish bike with decent tyre and mudguard clearance for a while but sadly they don't make the bike in a large enough size for me - 58cm is the biggest.

I'm also now interested in the Aubisque and it seems it is available as a 60cm frame, but the Spa website states the frameset is only available up to 58cm. Is it possible to order a 60cm frameset and is there any geometry information available, as I am concerned with toe overlap and need to know the front centres dimension?

Ben


On the subject of frame sizes my summer Specialized Roubaix is 58cm, and my winter/touring bike is a Spa Elan and the 56cm Frame is about the same. So don’t get too hung up on the stated size. As Colin says look at the dimensions on the website or better still take a trip to Harrogate and try out a Spa bike - they offer test bikes in various sizes. Ring up and book in advance.

I am lucky enough to ride with Colin, always a refreshing viewpoint of course! And we agreed that with the demise of the horizontal top tube frame dimensions are rather meaningless. Giant were the first to change to S, M, L, and XL when they introduced the first sloping top tubes. Seems to me that is a more logical these days.

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby 531colin » 3 Aug 2018, 3:05pm

bgnukem wrote:…………... I'm 6'5 but have long legs in relation to my height, around 36.5", ……....


I get 33.5" by the book up my crotch method in bare feet. (54cm frame with 10cm seatpost showing)
Aubisque uses 27.2mm seatpost
Lemond's "method" measures BB axle to the bum bone dent in your saddle, not (as often mis-quoted) straight along the seat tube.

Bsteel
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and AUBISQUE

Postby Bsteel » 4 Aug 2018, 1:30pm

531colin wrote:They are designed for 25 or 28mm tyres without looking too "gappy"....you might be able to cram a 35mm tyre in there, but I wouldn't, I want 10mm under the mudguard.


Would a 650B wheel give clearance to use a wider tyre or does the shape and threading of the chainstays mean there won't be much extra clearance ?.

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and AUBISQUE

Postby 531colin » 4 Aug 2018, 6:42pm

Bsteel wrote:Would a 650B wheel give clearance to use a wider tyre or does the shape and threading of the chainstays mean there won't be much extra clearance ?.

From the drawings...
Aubisque chainstays have a gap of 48mm at a radius of 330mm from the axle. (~manufacturing tolerances, say +/- 4mm when bending tube?)
Chainstays are "waisted" to clear the crank ends of current 105 which have a relatively narrow "Q", so they don't flare out rapidly.**
If you want to fit a size of wheel that the bike wasn't designed for, I suggest you take your wheel and tyre to the shop and offer it up into the frame. My idea of "adequate" clearance might be different to yours. There is also BB height to consider.
Wayfarer chainstays have a gap of 60mm at a radius of 335mm, but wheres the fun in fitting big tyres into a frame that's actually designed for it?

** something has to give.....its a disc bike, so that 135mm dimension comes 100mm in front of the axle for a long dropout to fit the caliper; the chainstays are (relatively) short, and its to fit a road double chainset.
Wayfarer has chainstays only 20mm longer, but its to fit a touring triple chainset…..an MTB chainset would give even more room for big tyres, but a worse chainline and wider "Q".

Bsteel
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Postby Bsteel » 4 Aug 2018, 8:38pm

Hi Colin,

Thank you for the details, I hadn't appreciated that the Wayfarer's chainstays were that much different to those of the Aubisque. Having only looked at the frame only pages I hadn't spotted the geometry charts, although once I found them the same drawings appear to have been used for both showing a 42.6mm clearance at the chainstays.