Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by 531colin »

Bsteel wrote:............showing a 42.6mm clearance at the chainstays.

Hadn't spotted that, so thanks for pointing it out. I wonder how much else like that is going on?
As you say, those are "just a drawing" (actually an original Ti Audax....haven't done them like that for years...) that somebody copies over and puts next to the dimensions chart., and (as you say) now there are quite wide variations in the bike types (and chainstay profiles) it should be worth using the actual drawing for that bike type. I'll see if I can sell the idea....and if anybody can do it..... :?
NetworkMan
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by NetworkMan »

Pretty sure the drawing of the Elan chainstays looks much like the Audax. Don't know if that's deliberate.

Compared with the tourer, the 54 cm Elan seems have a longer fork, longer head tube, same seat tube length and similar standover height. That seems almost magical or am I missing something subtle here?
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hondated
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by hondated »

Very interesting thread and its another example of why this forum is precious to all of us. Well done Colin.
PH
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by PH »

Some interesting choices - Having canti and disk brake mounts isn't something I've seen since the Dawes Sardar. I can see why someone on a round the world expedition might want the versatility but I suspect for most it'll just be an ugly addition. I wonder about using TRP brakes as standard instead of BB7's considering the numerous comments on here that the BB7s are easier to live with.
I note with interest Colin's comments about tube manipulation, I have a Thorn frame which doesn't seem to have a tube that hasn't been squeezed in some way or another. I thought it was all a bit gimmicky but have to admit it rides very well and although I wouldn't want to try and explain it I'm also a gear up.
There's now a lot of models from Spa. At some point does it become too many? Their business not mine of course, though there's plenty of business studies that show increasing choice doesn't necessarily increase sales. The Audax model might need renaming at some point, it's not the default type of bike for Audax anymore, that now seems to be carbon with disk brakes.
I watch with interest, though it's unlikely I'll buy another bike, though if they ever offered the Elan with Rohloff fittings I might be tempted to give it a try.
ubert767
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by ubert767 »

PH wrote:I watch with interest, though it's unlikely I'll buy another bike, though if they ever offered the Elan with Rohloff fittings I might be tempted to give it a try.


I'd second that.
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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by 531colin »

NetworkMan wrote:Pretty sure the drawing of the Elan chainstays looks much like the Audax. Don't know if that's deliberate...

Not really deliberate, just maybe lazy to use the same drawing for both/all. ......as above, its just a drawing which somebody copies over and puts next to the dimensions table, it isn't a drawing of the actual frame, but I'll see if I can get that changed.
NetworkMan wrote:…...Compared with the tourer, the 54 cm Elan seems have a longer fork, longer head tube, same seat tube length and similar standover height. That seems almost magical or am I missing something subtle here?

No magic, its a dropped top tube (as in the photos of the Elan) In other words, the head tube and seat tube both extend above the top tube.
(I could have stopped the seat tube at the top tube, but then you don't have a tube on the frame that measures the "size" and not only I can't get my brain round that, but any bike or frame in the shop, you can't just put a tape measure on it to get the size, you would have to.....do something else?....and I can't quite work out what else you would do just now.)
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531colin
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by 531colin »

PH wrote:.........There's now a lot of models from Spa. At some point does it become too many? Their business not mine of course, though there's plenty of business studies that show increasing choice doesn't necessarily increase sales...…….
I watch with interest, though it's unlikely I'll buy another bike, though if they ever offered the Elan with Rohloff fittings I might be tempted to give it a try.

Not my decision either, but I think we are due for a prune of some bikes. (if a customer can't decide, they go away)
I would like to see Wayfarer replace Roughstuff and Tourers …..although I confess a sentimental attachment to the Ti tourer I don't know how many sell. I could improve the design now, but you are still stuck with STIs, peoples aversion to canti brakes, and the limited clearance of mini-vees....so a light tourer with rim brakes maxing out at 35mm tyres? As previously, theres a whole lot of new Audax prototypes on their way, which will be better than the originals, but again I don't know the market....it all seems to be going disc brakes and big tyres.
I can't see Rohloff being on the horizon, but I know where I would look for cable routes.
bgnukem
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by bgnukem »

amediasatex wrote:bgnukem could you give us an actual on-bike measurement of BB -> saddle top in cm as I can't see how your maths is working out?

36.5in inside leg is 92.7cm
a 57.5cm frame + 450mm seapost, with 100mm in the frame means 57.5cm + 35cm = 92.5cm from BB centre to saddle rail clamp, assume another 20mm (racy thin thing) to 60mm (brooks B17) of saddle height, lets be super conservative and assume only 20mm, that gets you to 94.5cm from BB to saddle top.

Which would mean when sat on the saddle, with your legs dead straight dangling they are still 2cm short of reaching the BB, lets give you 20mm of shoe thickness and assume you know reach the BB, but that still leaves the cranks, another conservative assumption of 170mm cranks means you're 17cm short of reaching your pedals, even if you point your feet down straight down it seems unlikely you could pedal like that.

Using the oft quoted Lemond method* of 0.883 x inseam would yield about 32-33 inch from BB to saddle top for someone with your length legs, lets assume that's conservative and you need a full inch more, which would be unusual but not unheard of, 34in is roughly 86.4cm, lets call that 86.5cm for ease.

86.5cm - 57.5cm = 29cm
29cm - 2cm (saddle thickness) = 27cm

And lets whack a full 100mm into the frame, that would mean you need, at worst, at 370mm long post, which does negate the use of a 350mm post unless you're happy with only 80mm insertion, and if any of my 'worst case assumptions are out you might actually be able to get away with the 350mm posts, but a 400mm post should work fine, and they are plentiful.

Does the above all work out or have I made a glaring error? I'm not trying to be awkward or catch you out I just can't see how you need a 450mm post to make that frame work and trying to understand :? The only thing I can think of is if your 57.5cm frame is a 'virtual' measure on a compact frame with a seat tube that's actually significantly shorter than that, is that it?

I've had to fit some quite tall people on to bikes over the years and only twice come across people who genuinely needed a 450mm post, the first one was a whisker under 7 foot tall, and the other was determined to use a frame 2 sizes too small for him, and he was the same height as you.

* which I don't believe in but gives us a rough ballpark as a starting point for example purposes.


Sorry for delay replying Colin. Been busy breaking my foot so I can't cycle at all for probably a couple of months!

My commuter frame is actually 57cm C-T and there's 265mm of seatpost showing. Centre BB to top of saddle is 885mm. So I have around 185mm of seatpost in the frame. So yes I could probably get away with a 400mm 'post and 135mm of insertion but I guess I like the peace of mind of lower stresses on the seat tube given my weight is bouncing around a long way above the frame!

Ben
slowster
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by slowster »

bgnukem wrote: So yes I could probably get away with a 400mm 'post and 135mm of insertion but I guess I like the peace of mind of lower stresses on the seat tube given my weight is bouncing around a long way above the frame!

For double butted tubing, I suspect the butt at the top of the seat tube is likely to be less than 135mm. Increasing the seat post insertion depth beyond the butt would offer no benefit.
amediasatex
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by amediasatex »

531colin wrote:As previously, theres a whole lot of new Audax prototypes on their way, which will be better than the originals, but again I don't know the market


Are you in any position to elaborate on this Colin?
Wondering what changes (if any) might be afoot for the Ti Spa Audax, will it still be rim brake or is this a disc only replacement? any other geometry changes int he pipeline?

I'm happily riding around on one of the current Ti Audaxes and it's growing on me with each passing month but still curious what might be available in the future!
NetworkMan
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by NetworkMan »

slowster wrote:
bgnukem wrote: So yes I could probably get away with a 400mm 'post and 135mm of insertion but I guess I like the peace of mind of lower stresses on the seat tube given my weight is bouncing around a long way above the frame!

For double butted tubing, I suspect the butt at the top of the seat tube is likely to be less than 135mm. Increasing the seat post insertion depth beyond the butt would offer no benefit.

The 725 tube on the tourer is not butted it's bulged at the seatpost end (Reynolds term). The bulge makes the O/D of the tube greater because the O/D and wall thicknes are chosen so that a 27.2 mm seatpost will suit (rather neat I thought).

Profile is
AG455 28.6 0.9/0.6/1.2 550 95.25.300.30.100(Bulge)
AG457 28.6 0.9/0.6/1.2 635 85.25.395.30.100 (bulge)

So that there is a 30 mm transition region and then a 100 mm long section with a wall of 1.2 mm.
On my 54 cm frame the whole of that 100 region is there so the tube hasn't been cut at that end at all. It's a 54 cm frame so they probably used the AG455 tube and cut the 95 mm butted end shorter.
Colin will set us right if my understanding is wrong ....
Edit
If you subtract 2*0.6 mm from 28.6 mm you get 27.4 mm so it's possible that the internal diameter is constant or nearly constant for most of the length of the tube.
Last edited by NetworkMan on 9 Aug 2018, 1:07pm, edited 2 times in total.
NetworkMan
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by NetworkMan »

amediasatex wrote:
531colin wrote:As previously, theres a whole lot of new Audax prototypes on their way, which will be better than the originals, but again I don't know the market


Are you in any position to elaborate on this Colin?
Wondering what changes (if any) might be afoot for the Ti Spa Audax, will it still be rim brake or is this a disc only replacement? any other geometry changes int he pipeline?

I'm happily riding around on one of the current Ti Audaxes and it's growing on me with each passing month but still curious what might be available in the future!

Colin did that at the end of his long post on page one of this thread.
In brief - carbon forks with offsets to suit small frames and ovalized tubes, still with rim brakes.
amediasatex
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by amediasatex »

Thank you, I must have skipped over that bit.
slowster
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by slowster »

NetworkMan wrote:The 725 tube on the tourer is not butted it's bulged at the seatpost end (Reynolds term). The bulge makes the O/D of the tube greater because the O/D and wall thicknes are chosen so that a 27.2 mm seatpost will suit (rather neat I thought).

Profile is
AG455 28.6 0.9/0.6/1.2 550 95.25.300.30.100(Bulge)
AG457 28.6 0.9/0.6/1.2 635 85.25.395.30.100 (bulge)

So that there is a 30 mm transition region and then a 100 mm long section with a wall of 1.2 mm.

That's interesting. Thank you for the explanation.

However, in that case I would be concerned about having the bottom of the seatpost in contact with the thinner 0.6mm wall in the middle part of the tube.

On a different note, it's interesting that some would like to see the Elan with the option of a Rohloff. Although I can understand the appeal of mating a high end hub gear with an all-round titanium frame capable of roughstuff riding, I think it's the Wayfarer that would be most suited to a Rohloff option.
alexnharvey
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Re: Spa Cycles' Disc Braked Tourer and Audax

Post by alexnharvey »

Swappable dropouts would be a great development. Would open the frame up to hub gears.
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