are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

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Brucey
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are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Brucey » 9 Aug 2018, 10:11am

IME they are certainly more often a tight fit than not. However apart from the (shorter and therefore relatively stiffer) tyre bead, I can't think of a really good reason why this should be.

One of my chums (who has limited hand strength) has 20" (406) tyres on their touring bike and is seeking some tyres that will come on and off the rim OK, yet will be suitable for light touring. To put the hand strength issue into context, it is a struggle for them to squeeze a marathon tyre enough to allow the bead to be pulled into the rim well (using tyre levers) on their commuting bike, so a puncture on that usually means a walk, or deploying sealant perhaps.

Presently some (now old) Schwalbe stelvios are fitted on the touring bike. They don't seem unusually tight to me, but are rather problematic for the bike's owner. Half the equation is the rim, obviously; presently some Alex aero-ish rims are fitted. I suspect the Sun CR18s would be easier and when a rebuild is required; that might be the way ahead.

Does anyone have any suggestions of suitable tyres? Looking for ones about 32mm wide. [edit although 28mm ones would be OK too] I am tempted to suggest a folding tyre, even though it will probably be built less strongly than is ideal for touring, simply because it might be easier to manipulate a folding bead and a supple carcass, but I know it doesn't always work out like that.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 9 Aug 2018, 3:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Mick F » 9 Aug 2018, 10:34am

Not had a problem and they are no more difficult than any bike or any tyre IME.
406 rims. I've have two pairs, plus one odd rim. Fitted Schwalbe Durano, Conti GP and Conti SC.
Also, 16" rims on my Carry Freedom trailer with no issues.
Also, the Raleigh Chopper with a 16" and a 20" wheels. No issues.

Hardest tyres I've ever had were on wheelbarrows, and never really got the punctures fixed, so since then, I've got a solid wheel wheelbarrow. :D
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Mick F » 9 Aug 2018, 10:35am

PS:
Rims vary of course within batch to batch, let alone different makes. Maybe I've just been lucky.
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fossala
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby fossala » 9 Aug 2018, 10:49am

All the 406 rims I've ever used are Alexrims DA16. Most tires are easy enough but I've found marathon racers to be the easiest and Schwalbe pro ones hardest (impossible). The first and only time I rode them I got a puncture and couldn't get the tyres off the rims for 15mins, gave up and got a lift home. It then took me a good while and a lot of force to get them off and never put them back on. If you discount the pro ones I've not had any more of an issue with smaller wheels (349/355/369/406) than any other rim/tyre.

PaulCS
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby PaulCS » 9 Aug 2018, 12:33pm

Hi Brucey
I had a moulton pashley tsr 30 and always had difficulty using Scwalbe durano tyres. Sorry not a lot of help but as a general point I am always seeing advice on tyre fitting that states fitting the tyre starting at the tyre valve. I now always leave that bit to last so that tyre and inner tube opposite the tyre valve can be pushed into wheel 'well' thus giving more space to push the tyre into the wheel at the tyre valve. I also gradually reduce the small amount of air in the tube that I started with until I can push the final part of the tyre at the valve into the wheel well. So the only time I now use levers is at the start of removing the tyre never when refitting. (Alright never say never but so far so good)

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 9 Aug 2018, 2:02pm

Shouldn't be - I can do mine fairly easily, even my Marathon Winters...

The key, as always, is to get the wire down into the well.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Brucey
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Brucey » 9 Aug 2018, 3:07pm

thanks for the replies chaps;

Mick; weren't some contis you had so tight that when you fitted rim plugs to the rim, you couldn't fit them any more? Or have I remembered that wrongly?

Fossala; I think the rims are Alex DA16
Image
maybe marathon racers are worth a go.

PaulCS: duranos would be a straight replacement for the stelvios at present and (in other sizes) they seem to be a fairly tight fit. The oft-repeated advice about installing tyres starting at the valve is basically wrong (*) and is least likely to work if the tyre is a tight fit for the reasons you describe. [(*) I don't think you will find it in any older cycling books, from back when they actually checked facts before publishing them ...]

Bob, the issue is hand strength in this case; they find it difficult even to squeeze the tyre or push the bead off its seat with many tyre models, without which of course you cannot get started taking the tyre off. I was surprised by how much force it takes to do this vs the amount available, if you see what I mean. Basically the conclusion was that anything tough enough not to puncture too often when commuting would (certainly when new) be almost impossible for them to remove by the roadside. For touring, I don't think that this approach would work for them.

On a practical note, I need a set of similar tyres myself, only I'm a lot less fussed about the quality of the fit. So I have suggested that if they get a set of tyres that don't suit, I'll buy those and we can try another set instead. So we will get two goes at it before expensive frustration sets in.

In the longer term I'm wondering if a different rim would work better; the extant rims are worn and this will probably be the last set of tyres on them anyway.

cheers
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby reohn2 » 9 Aug 2018, 3:17pm

My only contribution to this thread is that Ihavent had any problems with Big Apples on 406 rims(Alex DA16) or the no name rims that came on my Tern folder.
I also had Kojaks on the Tern when I bought it which I don't recollect being had to get off to replace with the Bay's.
BA's have supple side walls(as do Kojaks) and not a great deal of tread but you need the frame clearances to accomodate a 50mm tyre
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Brucey
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Brucey » 9 Aug 2018, 3:38pm

FWIW the bike in question is a Moulton. The tyres I need are also for a moulton, which is currently fitted with big apples. The combination of fat tyres and suspension is.....too much.....

BTW the tyres almost certainly need to have some tread pattern on them; my suggestion of kojaks was dismissed out of hand and of conti contact speed (which have a file tread all over) was greeted with deep suspicion. Marathon racers look like the best bet so far.

cheers
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fossala
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby fossala » 9 Aug 2018, 3:42pm

Brucey wrote:FWIW the bike in question is a Moulton. The tyres I need are also for a moulton, which is currently fitted with big apples. The combination of fat tyres and suspension is.....too much.....

BTW the tyres almost certainly need to have some tread pattern on them; my suggestion of kojaks was dismissed out of hand and of conti contact speed (which have a file tread all over) was greeted with deep suspicion. Marathon racers look like the best bet so far.

cheers

40mm 406 schwalbe g-one's are in the 2019 catalogue, I don't know how tight of a fit they are though, but I'd be wary with them being tubeless compatible. I'll order one when the stock starts turning up.

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Mick F
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Mick F » 9 Aug 2018, 3:53pm

Yes Brucey, I tried plugs. Still have them in a tin in the shed.

Reason was that the rim tape wasn't staying put and the spoke holes were giving me internal punctures.
I found the plugs on the 'net and bought some, but as Bob has just said, the main thing, as always, is to get the bead into the well.
Having the plugs there, stopped that and it was almost impossible to fit the tyre.
Combined with this issue, the narrow plugs - yellow - weren't narrow enough so that made the issue even worse.

In the end, I resorted to PVC tape round the rim as well as the rim tape.

This was in the days of the original Moulton (black) rims. Since going over to CR18 rims (silver :D ) there's no problem at all.

Not had a puncture or a blow-out for ages and ages despite Moulton being my weapon of choice generally for bike rides and despite being off road and on tracks every now and again that I wouldn't even consider taking Mercian on.
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Mick F » 9 Aug 2018, 4:07pm

PS.
Moulton tyres.

The Conti GPs wore out on the rear PDQ, but the front seems to last and last.
The bike originally came with Duranos, and I hated them. Perhaps that was premature as I blamed the hard work of riding a Moulton TSR on the tyres.
I took off the Duranos and fitted Conti GPs. These felt much better, but I wonder now if that was wishful thinking.
As I say, the rear wore out very quickly.

I now at this moment, have a Dorano on the rear and a Conti GP on the front. I would expect that the rear Durano will wear out soon but the Conti GP on the front will still be ok.

Then, I'll fit the other Durano onto the rear ......... and wait for the front Conti GP to eventually wear out but it might be a while yet.

Meanwhile to all this, I've worn out a Conti Sports Contact on the rear and took the front one off at the same time but fitted the good Conti GP. I still have the front Conti SC.
Meanwhile meanwhile, I found a bargain of a pair of Conti SCs so they are sitting in the wings for use eventually.

I'll wear out both the Duranos, and the Conti GP still on the front and spare Conti SC .......... then I'll start with the bargain SCs.

Complicated eh? :wink:
Mick F. Cornwall

slowster
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby slowster » 9 Aug 2018, 4:35pm

It's an extreme solution to the problem, but how about a tyre setter tool like those made by Park and Unior?

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Unior-Tyre-Setter-1601-2DP_104303.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPVntkFOnK0

They are obviously very bulky and heavy tools to take on tour, but if it is otherwise impossible for your friend to remove the tyre in the event of a puncture, then maybe the extra weight is worth it for the peace of mind from knowing that the tyre can be removed if needed.

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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby the_twin » 9 Aug 2018, 6:14pm

I’ve found it easier to get tyres with Kevlar beads easier to get on and off my moulton. I had some continental speed contact that were impossible to get on.

Brucey
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Re: are small-wheeled tyres always a tight fit?

Postby Brucey » 9 Aug 2018, 6:28pm

slowster wrote:It's an extreme solution to the problem, but how about a tyre setter tool like those made by Park and Unior?
.


You are right, those tools (being meant for bullying an inflated tyre onto the rim shoulders when it doesn't really want to go) are complete overkill for the task in hand, capable of exerting about x20 more force than is required. I have wondered whether there is a tool that would complement the VAR tyre jack (or similar) so that it would be easier to get the tyres off; I was thinking about something as simple as running a plastic tyre lever round the tyre bead; having preloaded the bead to rise (using a tyre lever or tyre jack). This way even simply dislodging the bead with a tyre lever may be enough to get things going.

cheers
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