7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

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colin54
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby colin54 » 30 Aug 2018, 9:04am

Thanks for taking the trouble to do this Brucey, I often see RSX 7/8 speeds for sale

on ebay that look like they have been through the wars (heavily scraped etc),but still working,

so they look to be well engineered, I've read previously that Reohn 2 got some high mileage out of them

I bought a bike with RSX 7speed STI's a while back that had hardly been used and sat for about 20 years.

The front shifter had jammed due to hardened grease but luckily revived after the

WD40 and SFG spray grease treatment, but it's nice to see what's in there just in case I have to explore further one day

I don't use the bike much as I found levers are a bit of a stretch for my small hands, but they do change with a very

positive action, I may experiment with some different bars as it's a nice riding bike otherwise.

Here's a link to semi fluid grease aerosol in case anyone's looking for it, handy all over the bike I find.


https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p3561 ... _info.html

Just by the by I saw this sad canal dumped bike yesterday that had been in the water long enough to have fresh water

mussels growing on the frame and no spokes left attached, it had five speed Shimano thumbies on it so I gave one a go

and it still indexed like new ( I think the cable attaching it to the derailleur must have rusted through ).I imagine the

shifter had plastic internals,it was still surprising though,it must be all that fishing reel experience they've got.

P1100508 (640x494).jpg


P1100505 (640x480).jpg

reohn2
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby reohn2 » 30 Aug 2018, 9:22am

colin54 wrote:...... I've read previously that Reohn 2 got some high mileage out of them......


Indeed I have,I reckon a conservative estimated of 70k miles,without any problems other than the occassional flush with GT85 followed by SFG,being careful not to get any on the rubber hoods.

In fact I've never had problems with 7,8 or 9sp STI's which I've put some miles into over the years,the last pair of 9sp went with our Cannondale tandem which had at least 25k miles on without a problem.
I believe the 10sp ones with the gear cables under the bar tape aren't as long lasting though.

The linked SFG in Colin's post is the same stuff I use to relube both roas and MTB STI's :)
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Brucey
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Brucey » 30 Aug 2018, 9:31am

ah, the perils of underwater cycling... mussels eh...? - sounds like something out of 'pirates of the caribbean'.... :wink:

One comment I was going to make before is that there are at least three different finishes used on the main parts of this generation of STI;

- painted
- polished
- chromed

This finish may be applied to three parts; the main body ('bracket' in shimano-ese, which is never painted), the lever itself (which is never chromed), and the front cap (which can have any of the three possible finishes on it).

The painted finish obviously looks tatty quite easily if it is worn or scratched. The chrome finish (e.g. as used on ST6400 brackets and front caps) looks terrible when it gets scratched up, and can't be improved much by polishing etc. There is another downside to this finish which is that it is very much more slippery than the polished finish usually is (after it has weathered) and this makes the hoods ('bracket covers' in shimano-ese) more prone to moving around. Any lube overspill makes this ten times worse. I may experiment with some glue to hold the hoods better on this model of STI.

Of the three finishes arguably the polished finish is most practical in the long run; you might lose the decals on the front caps but it can be sanded and repolished to your heart's content otherwise.

One potential downside to an RSX LH triple shifter is that it doesn't have any trim clicks to it (i.e. it only has three positions, a bit like an MTB shifter, but with 'road' cable pull, obviously); this means that it is best suited to smaller/stiffer chainrings and with an FD that has a generous clearance, if you want to avoid rubbing.

cheers
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colin54
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby colin54 » 30 Aug 2018, 10:01am

Brucey wrote:
One potential downside to an RSX LH triple shifter is that it doesn't have any trim clicks to it (i.e. it only has three positions, a bit like an MTB shifter, but with 'road' cable pull, obviously); this means that it is best suited to smaller/stiffer chainrings and with an FD that has a generous clearance, if you want to avoid rubbing.

cheers


That's my experience, I was out on the bike the day before yesterday and it needs a bit more fettling in

the front derailleur adjustment department as it rubs a bit, not just at the extremes of small-small ,

large-large chain-ring /sprocket either , (quite a flexy frame as well).I think the derailleur has to be in

just the perfect position, I might put down tube levers and separate brake levers on the bike if I can't

sort the front derailleur and reach issues.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 30 Aug 2018, 5:09pm

Hi,
Got to admit that when of full tilt to the lights if they change I brake with rear and drop to 5th from 7th/8th and pull away on the top clanger, If I have to use the front brake I just keep two fingers onit and drop down to fifth If I have the time.
Rapid downshifts on the front may well unship the chain so I normally give it a handful on the right if I see a bump / step that will need a lower gear.
Also downshifts on the rear can be done underload, If I mess up on the front and drop to the granny accidentally then the chain will wrap around the wheels just when you don't want, connecting with top wheel and granny in half a loop is a recipe for chain suck then the dreaded rear derailleur is pulled out straight :shock:

First look come to think of it is - rear hub freewheel :( / freehub :) shifters sis means that the rest of gear will be cronky steel mostly unless its a brand make frame and then its an antique, cantis and maybe.....I think they were later when you see all gear & brake parts with same model name, you still see clean examples of early quality MTB's but even today parts are mismatched which is always a shame.
Occasional find is Claud Butler with a lugged 531 mtb frame, Raleigh's are still leeching out of the swamps weekly.
How many £1K bikes have brand name front hubs?
Still need a barn so I can start collecting old bikes for a museum :D
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bigjim
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby bigjim » 31 Aug 2018, 5:43pm

I'm still using those 5 speed thumbies on my MTB. No problems with them at all. Quite smooth actually.
Nothing left to prove.

Brucey
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Brucey » 1 Sep 2018, 11:28am

this photo is of a Sora type RH shifter internal.

Image

you can see that the internals owe more to flat bar STIs than to other dropped bar STIs, having more pressed steel and plastic parts. I don't mind the ergonomics of Sora shifters (they are not a million miles away from campag ergos in fact, and may (asides from shifting from the drops if you don't have long thumbs) in fact be better, ahem....) but these shifters are not quite as reliable as posher ones, presumably because of the cheaper internals.

cheers
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mercalia
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby mercalia » 1 Sep 2018, 10:43pm

Brucey wrote:......
One potential downside to an RSX LH triple shifter is that it doesn't have any trim clicks to it (i.e. it only has three positions, a bit like an MTB shifter, but with 'road' cable pull, obviously); this means that it is best suited to smaller/stiffer chainrings and with an FD that has a generous clearance, if you want to avoid rubbing.

cheers


well its only potential not in practice - my Dawes 1-Down has a complete RSX 8x3 Speed sti system and only deviates in that the front cranks/chainset is from the earlier 7x3 RSX sti system ie 46,36,26 ( which it came with) and works PERFECTLY with no chain rub or anything. no trim is needed and to have such would be a failure in my view. I have sometimes forgot i am on the 26 front and on a smaller cog at the back and no rub. I am glad I bought a spare system years ago as I would put that on a new frame if I had to, its a really forgiving practical system

Brucey
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Brucey » 2 Sep 2018, 12:19am

IIRC the matched RSX chainsets didn't have especially large sized (and therefore flexy) chainrings and so forth and a full matched set of RSX bits usually works OK IME, taking fairly hefty pedalling effort to make it rub in most installations. The 46T chainring size is more MTB than road bike, but with a road chainline. The transmission bits remind me a lot of Deore 7s stuff, but with a road chainline, STIs and a different shift ratio in the FD. Doubtless most folk run it with 8s chain these days which gives you a tiny bit more clearance in the FD than with true 7s chain, which is a touch wider. I think it was (and is) a pretty good transmission for a touring bike, but you wouldn't want a stronger rider to run it with a 52T chainring .

BTW when you look inside STI shifters they fall into two categories; either the index (and holding) wheel are full diameter even where there are no teeth, and have more than enough travel in the right place, or they are scalloped away to a smaller diameter where there are no teeth, and/or have limited travel. The RSX right hand shifter seems to be of the former type, which means that it may ( if you can be bothered to take the whole thing apart and attack it with a dremel tool) be possible to convert it to an 8s type shifter (but with slightly different cable pull). By contrast an RX100 (double) LH shifter has a load of travel beyond the big ring position, but the index wheel is scalloped away already, meaning that there is no 'meat' to cut additional teeth into. This means that you couldn't convert it to a triple type shifter simply by cutting additional teeth in the index wheel.

cheers
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Graham
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Graham » 5 May 2020, 1:55pm

RSX - 7speed - Right-hand gear change has gone bad. This probably isn't a lubrication issue - as I've been diligent.

I noticed that the front plate was loose, which appeared to deprive the changer mech of having a fixed anchor point.

I managed to reassemble the spring and front plate, but it is possibly worse than before.

As a temporary measure I've upgraded to a Downtube shifter [SL-6400]. Wow so positive and crisp . . . . and easy to adjust.

I'll get hold of some new (simple) brake levers* as a replacement to the RSXs. That will permit me to muck around with them, off the bike, at my leisure.

* Something to match the BR-A550 brakes

Brucey
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Brucey » 5 May 2020, 2:13pm

Graham wrote:...I noticed that the front plate was loose, which appeared to deprive the changer mech of having a fixed anchor point.

I managed to reassemble the spring and front plate, but it is possibly worse than before.....


Yes that will mess the shifting up. If the spring goes back in the wrong place (it can be very fiddly to get it back correctly) or there is other damage then the shifting will go bad.

FWIW using threadlock on the front plate screw is a very good idea, once you are sure the shifter is working correctly. You can remove and treat the screw whilst holding the front plate in position, thus ensuring that the spring doesn't pop out (again..... :roll: ).

cheers
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Graham
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Graham » 5 May 2020, 2:32pm

I'd quite like to go directly to STEP 2 in the Original 1st post.

According to that Full stripdown photo gallery . . . [ https://imgur.com/a/4IT1J ]
It would appear that the front plate should be relocated and bolted onto the front before reattaching the main shifter assembly back into the unit.

I'd certainly agree about the Threadlock. That front bolt cannot be tightened much before it starts to interfere with the free swing of the paddles.

Brucey
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby Brucey » 5 May 2020, 2:52pm

Graham wrote:
I'd certainly agree about the Threadlock. That front bolt cannot be tightened much before it starts to interfere with the free swing of the paddles.


that bolt should be fully tight. If it interferes with the paddle movement it just means there is something wrong.

If you are not taking the whole thing apart there is no need to fiddle with anything other than the front plate, IIRC. See my 'try not to lose anything' photo upthread.

cheers
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mikeymo
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby mikeymo » 5 May 2020, 5:29pm

Brucey wrote:this photo is of a Sora type RH shifter internal.

Image

you can see that the internals owe more to flat bar STIs than to other dropped bar STIs, having more pressed steel and plastic parts. I don't mind the ergonomics of Sora shifters (they are not a million miles away from campag ergos in fact, and may (asides from shifting from the drops if you don't have long thumbs) in fact be better, ahem....) but these shifters are not quite as reliable as posher ones, presumably because of the cheaper internals.

cheers


You will obviously know this Brucey, but for the benefit of other and future readers, current Sora don't have the thumb shifter thingy. So you can change up or down from the drops. Though it's still not quite as comfortable as shifting from the hoods, in my experience.
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mikeymo
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Re: 7/8s Shimano STIs; not quite so horrifying inside after all

Postby mikeymo » 5 May 2020, 5:59pm

As per my "make 9 x 3 last forever" thread, I came to the conclusion that the plan, such as it was, to reverse into infinite repairability by switching to Campagnolo, was doomed. As current Campagnolo isn't as repairable as wot it used to be, so I'd end up paying a small fortune for NOS stuff pre 2006 ish, and by the time it needed repairing, the parts might not be available anyway.

So...

I'm currently running 9x3 Sora. Given your comments on the slightly lower quality of Sora, I'm considering getting whatever new triple Shimano shifters of higher quality are still available. Which seems to be 105. What level of improved quality would that be over Sora (R3000, current) would you say? Negligible/slight/measurable/massive?

I'll research and tread carefully, but it seems Shimano Road 10 and 9 speed are largely compatible. And presumably if I left my current RD on the STI just works as a 9 speed.

Cheers.
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