For today we have naming of parts

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Brucey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Brucey »

NetworkMan wrote:
Get beam wrenches, large and small, and use them with the sockets advised above. Far easier and cheaper than clicky wrenches.

I've got a big beam one which I use for things like BB, crank bolts and cassette lockrings but can anyone recommend a small one for, say, 3 to 10 Nm; things like FD clamp bolts, caliper mounts, stem bolts, etc? I always have a fear of damaging a frame tube or failing to tighten a stem enough.


Image

might not manage 10nm though

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Airsporter1st
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Airsporter1st »

Brucey wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:
Get beam wrenches, large and small, and use them with the sockets advised above. Far easier and cheaper than clicky wrenches.

I've got a big beam one which I use for things like BB, crank bolts and cassette lockrings but can anyone recommend a small one for, say, 3 to 10 Nm; things like FD clamp bolts, caliper mounts, stem bolts, etc? I always have a fear of damaging a frame tube or failing to tighten a stem enough.


Image

might not manage 10nm though

cheers


Torque range is 3 ~ 12 Nm.
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foxyrider
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by foxyrider »

Airsporter1st wrote:
Brucey wrote:
NetworkMan wrote:I've got a big beam one which I use for things like BB, crank bolts and cassette lockrings but can anyone recommend a small one for, say, 3 to 10 Nm; things like FD clamp bolts, caliper mounts, stem bolts, etc? I always have a fear of damaging a frame tube or failing to tighten a stem enough.


Image

might not manage 10nm though

cheers


Torque range is 3 ~ 12 Nm.


Works for most parts on my carbon bike, only the cranks need more than 10nm, seat clamp for example only needs 2nm which I found out when I did the previous one up at 4nm - damned expensive mistake to make!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
NetworkMan
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by NetworkMan »

Thanks for that folks, 10 nM was only an insurance anyway; I don't recall anything needing more than 6 nM - I must check. Presumably there's a torsion bar with a pointer moving over the yellow scale. The big one works by bending a beam and I googled for a small one but failed.
Airsporter1st
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Airsporter1st »

NetworkMan wrote:Thanks for that folks, 10 nM was only an insurance anyway; I don't recall anything needing more than 6 nM - I must check. Presumably there's a torsion bar with a pointer moving over the yellow scale. The big one works by bending a beam and I googled for a small one but failed.


The one pictured is good for up to 12Nm anyway.

However if you want something more positive (i.e. a 'click' type) and not too much more expensive, then there are plenty around similar to this:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-essential-torque-wrench-set/?lang=en&curr=GBP&dest=1&sku=100275205&kpid=100275205&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=UK_PLA_Accessories&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mckv%7Cs4QbvHhPD_dt%7Cmcrid%7C67090840622%7Cmkw%7C%7Cmmt%7C%7Cmrd%7C100275205uk%7Cmslid%7C%7C&mkwid=s4QbvHhPD_dt&pcrid=67090840622&prd=100275205uk&pgrid=17507340302&ptaid=aud-131695477502:pla-347993380010
Brucey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Brucey »

NetworkMan wrote: Presumably there's a torsion bar with a pointer moving over the yellow scale. The big one works by bending a beam and I googled for a small one but failed.


The main shaft of the tool is usually a 4mm hexagon section and this twists (elastically only, one hopes... :wink: ) to give the torsion beam effect. The calibration can be changed by sliding the yellow scale up and down the shaft. If the shaft takes a 'set' at high torque then this gives a zero point error, which is obvious.

Park tool make (made?) a 1/4" beam type wrench which is just fine but at low torque a T handle is usually easier to use, esp one-handed. A point to note is that for a few fasteners you might encounter (eg lever hood bolts), you may need a long series 1/4" hex fitting bit to access the fastener head properly; the tool won't fit because it is too fat. But it works fine on stem hardware and seat post bolts etc.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NetworkMan
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by NetworkMan »

Brucey wrote:
NetworkMan wrote: Presumably there's a torsion bar with a pointer moving over the yellow scale. The big one works by bending a beam and I googled for a small one but failed.


The main shaft of the tool is usually a 4mm hexagon section and this twists (elastically only, one hopes... :wink: ) to give the torsion beam effect. The calibration can be changed by sliding the yellow scale up and down the shaft. If the shaft takes a 'set' at high torque then this gives a zero point error, which is obvious.

Park tool make (made?) a 1/4" beam type wrench which is just fine but at low torque a T handle is usually easier to use, esp one-handed. A point to note is that for a few fasteners you might encounter (eg lever hood bolts), you may need a long series 1/4" hex fitting bit to access the fastener head properly; the tool won't fit because it is too fat. But it works fine on stem hardware and seat post bolts etc.

cheers

Clearly you psychic 8) ; I was about too mention that. In the past couple of months I have had a bar-end shifter and an STI move because I didn't apply enough enough torque using an allen key the 'wrong' way round!
keyboardmonkey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by keyboardmonkey »

FWIW that Topeak torque wrench received a withering review in a BikeRadar group test (it's the last, and apparently least of those reviewed):

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/art ... est-46517/

NetworkMan wrote:
Brucey wrote:
NetworkMan wrote: Presumably there's a torsion bar with a pointer moving over the yellow scale. The big one works by bending a beam and I googled for a small one but failed.


The main shaft of the tool is usually a 4mm hexagon section and this twists (elastically only, one hopes... :wink: ) to give the torsion beam effect. The calibration can be changed by sliding the yellow scale up and down the shaft. If the shaft takes a 'set' at high torque then this gives a zero point error, which is obvious.

Park tool make (made?) a 1/4" beam type wrench which is just fine but at low torque a T handle is usually easier to use, esp one-handed. A point to note is that for a few fasteners you might encounter (eg lever hood bolts), you may need a long series 1/4" hex fitting bit to access the fastener head properly; the tool won't fit because it is too fat. But it works fine on stem hardware and seat post bolts etc.

cheers

Clearly you psychic 8) ; I was about too mention that. In the past couple of months I have had a bar-end shifter and an STI move because I didn't apply enough enough torque using an allen key the 'wrong' way round!


I'm not sure why, but Park Tool discontinued all beam type wrenches a while back, as well as my TW-5 'little clicker' torque wrench - a 1/4" drive model that comes, or came, with a 3/8" adaptor. Mine was superseded by the 3//8" drive TW-5.2.

As well as STI levers I have found some rear derailleurs require a longer than standard hex bit socket when used with a torque wrench; my Shimano XT M772 'Shadow' derailleur is fine, but a 5mm standard hex socket barely engages within the recess of my Ultegra 6700 rear derailleur. And similarly, this short review on YouTube also compares the Park Tool 'P' handle wrenches with similar Pedros tools:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIp9v0_sSno

So for torqueing a rear derailleur I use a longer hex bit socket...

A standard length hex bit socket doesn't quite fit the 'bracket spindle' on some rear derailleurs
A standard length hex bit socket doesn't quite fit the 'bracket spindle' on some rear derailleurs


... but for anyone thinking of getting a set of long hex bit sockets for the purposes I put them to, it's worth double checking that they are shoulderless:

5mm long hex socket bits, shoulderless type on the left.  You may wish to give the one on the right the, er, cold shoulder
5mm long hex socket bits, shoulderless type on the left. You may wish to give the one on the right the, er, cold shoulder
Brucey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Brucey »

keyboardmonkey wrote:FWIW that Topeak torque wrench received a withering review in a BikeRadar group test (it's the last, and apparently least of those reviewed):

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/art ... est-46517/



IMHO that is not a very good test. Some points;

1) torque settings below 3Nm are useful on some bikes; something that is rarely found in 3/8" drive clicky wrenches.
2) main benefit of a torque wrench is that inexperienced mechanics don't overtighten stuff; they made little discrimination between torque wrenches that (safely) undertorqued vs ones that overtorqued.
3) They described the Topeak torque wrench as 'under reading' but this is not the case; it over-reads the actual torque, which is safer than not.
4) their determination was made over a relatively short length of time with a sample size of one. This is not representative of long-term use/storage and it is not statistically significant to draw conclusions on that sample size.
5) most of the wrenches on test were 3/8" drive ones that need two hands to operate (in most cases on bike parts) without generating errors. The errors will vary with exactly how the wrench is held, and may be vastly greater than any likely basic calibration errors. (The torque tester couples differently to the wrench and so won't be subject to the same constraints )
6) The benefits of consistent one-handed operation are not given enough emphasis
7) the need for long reach bits for many parts is not mentioned
8 ) the potential for checking and adjusting the wrench calibration is not mentioned.
9) IME with torque wrenches ( which is both extensive and lengthy) any clicky type wrench should be checked pretty much every time it is used. Common faults include;
a) that the wrench takes a knock and goes out of calibration
b) that the wrench is left preloaded and goes out of calibration
c) that the wrench is left adjusted to less than zero and vital parts of the overcentre mechanism go out of position (wrench broken, or worse yet way out of calibration)
d) that the wrench dries out in storage and the first few clicks out of storage are at anomalously high torque values
e) that the wrench dries out and gives false readings all the time.
f) that a cheap wrench will wear internally and fail to work at all well after a time.
g) that dirt gets into the mechanism and renders it useless.

Thus in aerospace use (for example) there is a gadget to test torque wrenches on the shop floor and fitters (who are trained to use the wrenches and won't generate errors through holding them in an odd fashion) at required to use the tester before and after every job. Clicky wrenches fail quite often.

By contrast a home mechanic with a seldom used clicky wrench is on a pretty sticky wicket. The wrench will probably overtorque for the first few times it is used after any storage, and that is if it is still in calibration anyway (which it probably won't be).

IMHO that a clicky wrench (that overtorqued at low values... and only goes down to 3Nm anyway.... :shock: ) 'won' their test without such caveats is pretty appalling.

A beam type wrench is a much better prospect in the long run; once set it basically can't (easily, some can still be held badly) go wrong. With a very simple arrangement of a lever and a dead weight you can check the settings of any torque wrench, and (unlike the others on test) the topeak one's calibration is easily adjusted in the case of an error from new.

BTW one is likely to get +/- 30% variations in fastener tension (even with the best torque wrench) depending on whether the bolt is old or new, what it and the thread are made of, and/or how it is lubricated. In general if you slightly undertighten low torque parts this is 'safe' in that the worst case is usually that they move slightly when you test the security of (say) a brake lever, saddle or handlebar. Errors in the other direction are rather less forgiving; parts are easily damaged and may then fail catastrophically, without warning, when the bike is being ridden.

cheers
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keyboardmonkey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by keyboardmonkey »

Brucey wrote:
keyboardmonkey wrote:FWIW that Topeak torque wrench received a withering review in a BikeRadar group test (it's the last, and apparently least of those reviewed):

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/art ... est-46517/



IMHO that is not a very good test. Some points...



And all very detailed, expert ones as we have come to expect. I logged in to CRC to see how much I spent on my torque wrench. £80 (the RRP and online price of the replacement are a fair bit higher now). You've definitely got me thinking again about many of those points, especially 9 a, b, & c. I may have to seek out somewhere to have my 'little clicker' recalibrated...
David9694
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by David9694 »

The tile of this thread is that of a poem - we did it in English. “ to,orrow we will have what to do after firing, but today we have naming of parts” “...don’t let me catch anyone using his thumb”

Without looking it up, who is the author? I was thinking Kipling or Newbolt, but now I’m not so sure. I’m going to click submit and then have me a peek.
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meic
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by meic »

It was a First World War Poem.
I was taught about it in English Lit.
It was a bored squaddie during weapons training and the action of the bolt going in and out of the rifle was, according to my English teacher, supposed to be a sideways reference to something the squaddie would have been far more interested in doing. :wink:
Yma o Hyd
Brucey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by Brucey »

keyboardmonkey wrote: You've definitely got me thinking again about many of those points, especially 9 a, b, & c. I may have to seek out somewhere to have my 'little clicker' recalibrated...


since it is something that needs doing fairly often, best if you contrive a way of doing it yourself?

Some suggestions

1) use a beam wrench to calibrate/check the clicker. Beam wrenches don't suffer at all through lack of use, and you still get to use your clicker on the bike (which many folk prefer). You need to find some way of coupling the wrenches; a bi-hex socket of the right size will often do it.

2) just get a bar that attaches to the drive square and hang a dead weight from it. (A carrier bag with 1kg sugar bags in for example.) BTW a bi-hex combination wrench of the right size will be a snug fit over the 3/8" drive square and can be used to make a suitable thing to hang the weight from.

You will quite easily get within ~2-5% this way and that is probably good enough

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
keyboardmonkey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by keyboardmonkey »

meic wrote:It was a First World War Poem.
I was taught about it in English Lit.
It was a bored squaddie during weapons training and the action of the bolt going in and out of the rifle was, according to my English teacher, supposed to be a sideways reference to something the squaddie would have been far more interested in doing. :wink:


I vaguely imagined it was a First World War poem, but Henry Reed was born in 1914.
keyboardmonkey
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Re: For today we have naming of parts

Post by keyboardmonkey »

Brucey wrote:
keyboardmonkey wrote: You've definitely got me thinking again about many of those points, especially 9 a, b, & c. I may have to seek out somewhere to have my 'little clicker' recalibrated...


since it is something that needs doing fairly often, best if you contrive a way of doing it yourself?

Some suggestions

1) use a beam wrench to calibrate/check the clicker. Beam wrenches don't suffer at all through lack of use, and you still get to use your clicker on the bike (which many folk prefer). You need to find some way of coupling the wrenches; a bi-hex socket of the right size will often do it.

2) just get a bar that attaches to the drive square and hang a dead weight from it. (A carrier bag with 1kg sugar bags in for example.) BTW a bi-hex combination wrench of the right size will be a snug fit over the 3/8" drive square and can be used to make a suitable thing to hang the weight from.

You will quite easily get within ~2-5% this way and that is probably good enough

cheers


Thanks. I’m going to get my head round all of that and try to give it a go.
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