shimano 105 5600 cones

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rick99
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shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby rick99 » 3 Sep 2018, 9:21pm

I have play in my rear hub, just on the drive side. I want to replace the bearings and cone on the drive/right side. I can't find them for sale anywhere. Are they 'done'? Am I supposed to buy an 'axle assembly'? Can't find that either.

Brucey
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Brucey » 3 Sep 2018, 9:40pm

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AndyA
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby AndyA » 3 Sep 2018, 9:48pm

You could also use Wheels MFG aftermarket cones which are more available but lower quality.
see https://wheelsmfg.com/tech/PDF/hub/hb-5600.pdf

rick99
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby rick99 » 3 Sep 2018, 9:54pm


Great thanks


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

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cycleruk
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby cycleruk » 4 Sep 2018, 7:15pm

Am I right in thinking you can't get cups for Shimano hubs?
I have a pair of Tiagra that have worn cups. Even if you could I don't see a way of changing them.
You'll never know if you don't try it.

Brucey
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Brucey » 4 Sep 2018, 7:58pm

cycleruk wrote:Am I right in thinking you can't get cups for Shimano hubs?
I have a pair of Tiagra that have worn cups. Even if you could I don't see a way of changing them.


worn cups are best removed (from these hubs) by welding a bolt to the cup and driving them out (while it is all hot is best). You can recover cups from hubs in usable condition by destroying the hubshell they are mounted in. Shimano cups are not available as spare parts you can buy.

I have changed cups in some hubs but tbh it isn't much quicker than rebuilding the wheel (if you are any good at it) so it is only worthwhile if you can't replace the hub exactly but you can get another cup from a different hub.

cheers
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cycleruk
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby cycleruk » 4 Sep 2018, 8:32pm

Thanks Brucey.
Rebuilt the wheels with 105 hubs and hoping they will last longer than the Tiagra.
You'll never know if you don't try it.

Brucey
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Brucey » 4 Sep 2018, 9:26pm

cycleruk wrote:Thanks Brucey.
Rebuilt the wheels with 105 hubs and hoping they will last longer than the Tiagra.


recipe for hub longevity is

- adjusting them correctly (a little free play that just disappears as the QR is tightened)
- keeping them well greased (with good grease not that rubbish that is in them when they are new)
- keeping the water out. (keeping the seal lips wetted with lube is key to this, which is why I recommend using SFG in most shimano hubs).

A failure in any one of the three main things above can kill the hubs in short order. Ask yourself what happened to the Tiagra hubs and if you can prevent a recurrence.

BTW worn hubs can work better than most folk imagine; they can rumble on for years, quite happily. If you adjust them correctly, you will know if there is ongoing wear, because the bearings will develop more slack almost immediately. By contrast a hub with too much preload (i.e. no free play with the QR loose) can start to wear very badly and this doesn't immediately result in noticeable free play with the wheel in the frame.

Often if you give worn hubs a chance they will 'settle down' after a couple of small adjustments. If you use grease that is packed full of solid lubricants, the raceways often tend to get smoother over time, not rougher.

I misassembled a shimano front hub in about 1984; I did something that was (and still is) fairly easy to do with a typical shimano front hub, which is to get one of the balls riding on the shoulder of the cup instead of in it. I rode that hub just two miles on a test ride and during that ride I was painfully aware that something terrible was probably happening inside the hub; various 'orrible crunching sounds emanated from it. I opened it up and found an exploded ball bearing and that both the cone and the cup were quite badly marked. Aghast, and with heavy heart, I cleaned it up, fitted new balls, and put it back together, thinking that I'd just wrecked it. That hub has done another 25000 miles (at least; many whilst heavily loaded) and still looks to have plenty more life left in it.

cheers
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rick99
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby rick99 » 10 Sep 2018, 11:45am



I've had another look. Yours wa a prescient warning, there's loads of play actually in the freehub. Can't find a 5600 one of those for sale either, even gogin through the SJS site a bit more carefully. Did iread somewhee that 5501 adn 5600 freehubs are compatible?

cromo
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby cromo » 10 Sep 2018, 12:16pm

Have a look at
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FH-5600-2458C.pdf
I think it answers your question about freehubs.

cromo
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby cromo » 10 Sep 2018, 1:10pm

If there is play in the freehub then it may be worth dismantling it and removing shims to eliminate play.

Brucey
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Brucey » 10 Sep 2018, 4:42pm

I think that one of the (many) other freehub bodies that share the interface to the hubshell with the 5600 model hub can be made to work. Differences are very often confined to the body washer, and/or RH seal/dust cover, both of which can be re-used from the old freehub body if necessary.

Provided the internals are not too badly corroded, adjustment of the freehub body would be my first choice (not least because new bodies often come with some free play rather than none) but it is a fiddly job that not everyone is equipped or is able to do. Also the minimum shim thickness (about 0.05mm, which is not found inside all freehub bodies) is often not enough to allow really precise adjustment of the bearings; I commonly lap the parts if I want the adjustment to be *perfect*.

Once adjusted to be play-free, and kept lubricated with some decent lube (the whole hub will be happier running in SFG than anything else IME) the freehub body may well outlast the rest of the wheel.

cheers
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Sweep
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Sweep » 10 Sep 2018, 5:09pm

Brucey wrote:

Often if you give worn hubs a chance they will 'settle down' after a couple of small adjustments. If you use grease that is packed full of solid lubricants, the raceways often tend to get smoother over time, not rougher.

I misassembled a shimano front hub in about 1984; I did something that was (and still is) fairly easy to do with a typical shimano front hub, which is to get one of the balls riding on the shoulder of the cup instead of in it. I rode that hub just two miles on a test ride and during that ride I was painfully aware that something terrible was probably happening inside the hub; various 'orrible crunching sounds emanated from it. I opened it up and found an exploded ball bearing and that both the cone and the cup were quite badly marked. Aghast, and with heavy heart, I cleaned it up, fitted new balls, and put it back together, thinking that I'd just wrecked it. That hub has done another 25000 miles (at least; many whilst heavily loaded) and still looks to have plenty more life left in it.

cheers

Interesting Brucey.

And that hub essentially runs fine/smooth with no appreciable drag?

I ask as on the face of it your post echoes what I was told by a bike shop owner/mechanic I respect. Showed him a hub with a slightly marked cup and cone from some grit that somehow had got into a new Spa built wheel hub. I got him to replace the cone but he reckoned that the marks on the cup could be safely lived with/would have no appreciable effect on the way the wheels rolled.
Sweep

Brucey
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Re: shimano 105 5600 cones

Postby Brucey » 10 Sep 2018, 6:19pm

Sweep wrote:
Brucey wrote:

Often if you give worn hubs a chance they will 'settle down' after a couple of small adjustments. If you use grease that is packed full of solid lubricants, the raceways often tend to get smoother over time, not rougher.

I misassembled a shimano front hub in about 1984; I did something that was (and still is) fairly easy to do with a typical shimano front hub, which is to get one of the balls riding on the shoulder of the cup instead of in it..... I cleaned it up, fitted new balls, and put it back together, thinking that I'd just wrecked it. That hub has done another 25000 miles (at least; many whilst heavily loaded) and still looks to have plenty more life left in it.

cheers

Interesting Brucey.

And that hub essentially runs fine/smooth with no appreciable drag?
.


yes, if anything it is smoother now than it has ever been before (including pre-blow-up).

There are many kinds of wear damage that are basically unacceptable but then again there are sorts of wear damage that are quite tolerable too. You can assess how the hub will be in use by snugging the QR down on a spacer of some kind, eg a couple of M10 washers each side. A poorly adjusted newish hub will often be quite a bit worse feeling than an old one that is adjusted correctly. Some points to note;

a) If the hubs are suitably adjusted (i.e. so that the slightest slackening of the QR creates free play) then any ongoing wear will immediately be apparent because the wheel bearings will develop some free play.

b) if there is one bad pit in a cone, you can mark the axle so you can make sure that the pit always faces upwards (or upwards and forwards slightly in the case of a rear wheel) so that when the wheel is installed the service loads never pass through the damaged part of the cone.

c) if you mount the cone in an electric drill and polish it lightly with 600 grit paper, any pits should be left with slightly rounded edges, which greatly lessens their chances of getting worse; the pit edges don't chip so easily because they don't see the same loads any more.

d) 'conventional' (i.e. 3/16" balls front, 1/4" balls rear) hub bearings are sized so that the balls can see 'one at a time' loading and the hub won't instantly fail. However when they are correctly adjusted, the balls do share the load (BTW pressed steel cups are slightly elastic which is no bad thing in this respect). This means that if a ball runs over a small pit, the neighbouring balls share the load quite well and (esp if the pit has rounded edges) ongoing wear will be negligible.

e) wear can proceed via several mechanisms; one of the ones that is easily avoided is so called 'plucking wear' in which a high spot on one part, or a particle in 'the third body' (of which more later) welds itself to the surface of another part, and pulls a chunk of it away when it is removed. Use of a lubricant that is loaded up with EP additives and solid lubricants (e.g the best CV joint greases -which are not suitable for high speed bearings- and greases for exposed gear trains etc) will inhibit this type of wear.

f) avoid the formation of 'a third body'. Any wear debris mixes into the grease, rendering it abrasive, and the result is that you can get an 'avalanche' of wear. There are several defences against this; solid lubricants can have a particle sizes that are large enough to mean that wear debris particle below a certain size don't see the full load of the balls, because the balls are sitting on a layer of solid lubricant particles. The second is to ensure a regular supply of clean lubricant; the easiest way of achieving this is to fit a grease port and to use it. Needless to say the more lubricant there is, and the more mobile it is, the less the 'third body' is confined to the locality of the balls. Old hubs which are lubricated with oil in a 'total loss' fashion flush debris out of the hub in use but a hub might be able to hold ~x10 SFG and this may mean the third body is x10 less abrasive simply through dilution.

g) Be absolutely anal about hub adjustment; no free play with the QR loose = bearings set too tightly. It is very easy for the preload to exceed the service loads this way.

h) damage that is unacceptable includes; gross wear (eg a groove that you can feel with your fingernail), cracks of any kind, individual pits that are larger than a certain size, bearings that are worn badly lopsided (so that with the best adjustment possible the bearing is noticeably tight at one point and noticeably loose at another. If in doubt, run it for a little while and see if it improves or not. In theory there is a danger from (say) a front hub seizing; in reality this doesn't tend to happen without there being plenty of warning first; the bearing will develop free play and/or make a lot of weird noises well before it lets go completely or seizes.

I) note that some lubricant additives are meant not to work except at high temperatures, so you might think they can serve no useful purpose in a bicycle bearing. However this is not the case; if a particle runs between the balls and the bearing surfaces and gets squashed, that particle sees (momentarily and locally) temperatures of several hundred degrees; lots of chemistry going on just then!

hth

cheers
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