Cheap but decent wheels

[Sweep]

Any thick tubed aluminium frame is going to ride differently to a steel frame with 1" headset. Try moving the planet x wheels over to an old steel frame and you will likely see what I mean.

You consider the latter superior?

Not arguing I stress, just asking.

[Freddie]

Well, there is a question of how much stiffness is needed in a frame and a thick tubed aluminium frame will, all else being equal, be a fair bit stiffer than a steel one, especially a thinner tubed one. In terms of raw power output, it might be that a stiffer frame is better, but there is a difference in road feel/vibration transmission and this affects rider enjoyment and fatigue, neither of which should be underestimated.

It is not a binary answer, but for general riding (rather than competition), my preference would be for a frame with a little give in it and these are typically steel frames rather than aluminium.

[Sweep]

Well, there is a question of how much stiffness is needed in a frame and a thick tubed aluminium frame will, all else being equal,be a fair bit stiffer than a steel one, especially a thinner tubed one. In terms of raw power output, it might be that a stiffer frame is better, but there is a difference in road feel/vibration transmission and this affects rider enjoyment and fatigue, neither of which shouldn't be underestimated.

It is not a binary answer, but for general riding (rather than competition), my preference would be for a frame with a little give in it and these are typically steel frames rather than aluminium.

tend to agree with you. I have a nice big tubed ally Cannondale frame. They then clearly thought it a good idea to relieve the bumps with a short travel suspension. The bits from that frame are now on a Tange steel tubed bike with a 1 inch headset. Suspension is not missed.

[amediasatex]

Now if you're saying the weight of the wheel has no effect I think you're probably wrong. I'm pretty certain I've read the weight of a rolling wheel has a greater effect than the equivalent weight of a non rolling part on the bike. If that's not the case then what is the point of lighter wheels? Why do people bother.

Let's just park that can of worms for a moment as the topic is complex, and also shrouded in myth and misunderstanding....we'll come back to it later if necessary!

If you read on forums people asking for best bike upgrades tyres are quoted as first thing but wheels are generally right up there.

They're quite right, tyres probably are the easiest way to make significant changes to the performance, both perceived and real. But again this depends on your definition of 'performance', for example Marathon Pluses 'perform' excellently if you're measuring resistance to punctures and WRT grip, they perform terribly in every way WRT speed though, to the point that it's pretty much irrelevant what wheels you're going to fit them to as any minor gain from the wheels will likdly be eclipsed by the tyres.

Also worth bearing in mind here that tyres can perform in many ways, grip, comfort, rolling resistance, puncture resistance etc. and they're all inter-related and it is ALWAYS a compromise, there is no tyre that does them all well, well enough maybe, but no tyre can excel in all aspects so you need to choose where your priorities lie. Having said that if you want an instant speed gain then tyres are a great place to start unless you're already rolling on speedy rubber.

I've run these wheels for about 4 years and IMHO a change is probably worth doing.

Sorry to keep banging the drum here, but why? In order for a change to be worth doing you must have identified something about your wheels that is lacking, simply being 4 years old doesn't stop them working as wheels, and unless they're worn out or damaged then they're as good today as they were 4 years ago.

If you read one of my other threads I'm also looking at a bike to make things more exciting it interesting again. If it's not a new bike (problematic with storage) then wheels are probably a good, cheaper and possibly better option for me. It's about options really.

OK, so that's fairly subjective but if I interpret that correctly (please correct me if I've got it wrong) you're after a change in 'feel' as much as you are any actual change in speed? If that is the case then that opens up other aspects to the discussion as changing the feel of a bike can be done in many ways (eg. tyre size as well as model), not just by losing some weight off the wheels and if actual measurable speed improvement isn't a major requirement then that can perhaps be ignored or bumped down the priority list?

I know it's difficult to give a definite opinion without weight of current wheels I'll try and get it. The same bike in the current version has a wheelset weighing 2350g. I think mine are slightly heavier being the older wheelset that got replaced with the current one (assuming it's better, lighter, etc.).

I think I saw a £185 spa cycles wheelset for 1680g or so. Significant weight loss?

Aye, without knowing where you're starting from it's hard to be sure, but 2.3kg isn't unusual for sturdy budget OEM wheels. Dropping to a ~1.7kg wheelset is a significant drop in terms of % between those two sets of wheels for sure, but in terms of whole bike weight is still very small, and once you put a rider on top it's smaller still, which means the actual measurable difference in terms of say, effort to climb a hill of X feet is going to be very small indeed. When you also consider that on the flat, once the heavy wheels are up to speed they may actually help you maintain speed by carrying more momentum then it's even less. You also need to consider that the lighter wheels also come with a price, not just in £. Lighter wheels will likely have fewer spokes, possibly alu nipples, smaller bearings in the hubs, and also might have thinner braking surfaces on the rims or other weight saving methods. All of these mean a wheel that might be weaker, or not last as long, or both. Whether or not they are compromises you want to accept is up to you, but you don't get light weight for free.

Performance? How about a more sprightly ride? To clarify I notice when I'm running at as little as 1mph slower average speed on my commute, I can usually predict commute time before I even get halfway based on feel of the ride. I noticed on my previous bike (an upright hybrid) that dropping low over the bars got an easy 2mph+ speed increase on the faster flats on my commute. I noticed how my old road bike (not very light steel bike from 30 years ago) was actually a very smooth ride compared to more modern bikes.

You've touched on one of the key factors right there in your post... when travelling at moderate to high speed most of the work you're doing is against the air not the road. And most of what is in the way of the air is you, the rider, followed by the frontal area of the bike, which is dominated by frame tubes and tyre aspect. The aerodynamics of the wheels can be measured, and there are differences between wheels but the overall effect is small in relation to the system as a whole. It's also not related to weight, and it's also not something that realistically comes into play for wheels at your budget. To put it into context, you'll get a much bigger gain from a more aerodynamic position than you'd ever get from changing bike, let alone just the wheels.

The goal would be a lighter bike with a goal of making the bike and me faster,

That's starting from the premise that a reduction in weight will make you faster, it might not, and even if it does, in terms fo actual cold hard numbers the difference is probably be smaller than it's worth worrying about.

the bike more responsive if possible and the bike a better ride. It's all subjective but I'm sure

Now we're back to feel, more sprightly is hard to quantify, and again can come from things other than weight loss. 'Better' ride is again subjective, better how? faster*? (tyres), gripper? (tyres), comfier? (tyres)

Having said all that lighter weight wheels can feel nice to ride, you will likely notice the loss of weight in terms of feel, if not in actual performance. I love the feel of a nice light set of wheels, but my 'fast' wheels are not that light at all, and over a normal ride that includes up down and along they're faster than the super light wheels.

Another problem is you get used to that you ride, once you're used to the new feel it'll just feel 'normal' again. I love my light wheels, I love sticking them into my bike and going for a ride, everything feels all nice and sprightly but it's the difference I'm noticing, if I leave them on then they stop feeling light!


*faster uphill?, faster on the flat? faster when sprinting?

[Brucey]

the wheels in question are 100mm OLN front 135mm OLN rear with conventional QR and disc mounts, presumably six-bolt ones. PX currently supply this wheelset

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPGIROEQ/gipiemme-roccia-equipe-700c-29-inch-disc-wheelset

with their basic 'London road' models. At £69 this wheelset is a bargain, but it does weight 2380g (claimed). It appears to be built with 32x3 PG spokes and has rims that are 19mm internal width. TM's wheelset is older but lets assume it is of similar ilk. Folk do rabbit on about lighter wheels making a huge difference but the weight that makes most difference (to both strength and ride feel) is in the rims, (i.e. in the wheel periphery) rather than the hubs or spokes.

if the hubs are the typical fodder found at low cost they will be cup and cone hubs with a steel freehub body. IME such hubs usually work well provided they are correctly serviced, adjusted and lubricated. The freehub bodies need re-shimming about as often as shimano ones do and the procedure is similar. The hub weight is usually comparable to a basic shimano model (eg FH/HB-M475 in this case) because they are built in a similar way. When you get 'lightweight' wheelsets the hubs usually come with cartridge bearings, aluminium freehub bodies, and lighter weight spokes, vs cheaper wheels.

The hubs can be about 200g/pair lighter and the spokes can be about 200g a set lighter if they are DB rather than PG. So you can 'save' 400g quite easily this way, even if the rims are about the same weight (which they often are.....). But..... different hub weights make stuff-all difference to the ride feel, aluminium freehub bodies are not 100% reliable, and lighter spokes are not so effective at making the ride feel different as a similar reduction in rim weight.
Depending on how cheap the extant spokes are they may or may not even be stainless steel.

One suggestion is that you can make a lighter weight set of wheels quite easily by

- buying a lighter weight cassette; they vary by about 100g or so
- rebuilding the wheelset with DB spokes (saves about 200g)
- using lightweight inner tubes (saves about 50g per tube)
- using lighter weight/faster tyres (can save 200g per tyre or more depending on what you start with).
- using lightweight disc rotors (25-50g per rotor depending on what you start with)
- lighter weight QR skewers, eg security type ( up to 50g lighter a set) [note that wheeset weights are usually quoted without QRs, even though they are usually supplied, and are absolutely necessary.... ]

if buying a new wheelset, (which will for your use probably also be built 32x3 BTW) ask yourself how much of the weight saving is a) real, b) in the hubs (little effect on ride feel) and c) how much is elsewhere, and d) whether there are compromises (eg aluminium freehub body ) that you are entirely happy with.

Also note that there is typically stuff-all difference in the net weight of six-bolt setups and centrelock setups; typically the latter has lighter hubs but heavier discs; the standard lockrings are steel (and for a reason too). So don't be fooled by a centrelock wheelset with a low headline weight; it'll come back up again once the discs are fitted.

One option that is worth thinking of is the Mavic Aksium disc wheelset; about 1900g and £180 (shipped). But it uses straight pull spokes (difficult to source when you break one) is supplied/weighed without QR skewers, has a weird freehub body design (I think; do check this, but I think there is a plain bearing inside it which saves weight but needs frequent maintenance if it is not to go draggy and/or make a terrible sound when freewheeling) and has an internal rim width of 17mm which may limit your tyre choices. 24 spokes is probably not really enough for heavy duty use, either. Of the weight difference about 200g is in the spokes, about 50g per rim (estimated) and the remainder is in the hubs.

cheers

[PH]

I'm in agreement with amediasatex that any benefit gained by better wheels will be lost once you fit the M+.
If the current wheels are OK, here's what I'd do - have two wheelsets
1) M+ on the originals keep them for the poor weather and really rough stuff
2) lighter set with faster and lighter tyres, even lighter than you'd go if you were using them for the above

I'm doubtful how much you'll notice by just swapping wheels, I put a heavier set on an Audax bike a couple of years ago and couldn't tell the difference.

[mattsccm]

Perhaps he just wants some wheels that seem nicer. After all its boring to always go for the basics.
Methinks he is worrying about strength too much. 1500gn wheels are perfectly capable of off road use if a modicum of care is used.
Why no look out for 2nd hand?

[Tangled Metal]

Most of the time I use hypers at 32mm. It's really only m+ in winter for a month or two. Although I've been looking for a different winter tyre. It's mostly about puncture resistance as I'm very cautious about slipping so go slow if it's iffy. I decked out twice over 4 years in winter and both cases I was at walking pace so would have slipped walking I reckon.

At one point I considered one of the lighter marathon versions racer or supreme. My recumbent came with iirc urban racer tyres. They're very slippy I found on anything but good or grippy surfaces so I've been put off.

I used to ride on 700x23c gatorskin plus tyres (years ago). A bit too slick for winter perhaps.

Anyone suggest a light winter tyre if there is one? TBH I think I'd like one tyre for year round use if possible.

[Brucey]

the non-TL version of the Almotion has quite thick puncture protection and rolls very easily. I think it would make a good all round tyre. I must say I'd be tempted to run different tyres in the old and new wheelsets as suggested above.

cheers