Headsets, which wears first - race or bearings?

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 12:12pm

I made this bike. It's a road bike and it has mudguards on now.

The headset came with it (but not fitted). It's a VP-A51A, which I think is Cane Creek. Caged balls. I plan on replacing those with loose bearings, once I find out what size they are.

I'm not at all interested in the cartridge bearing mullarkey. As I can get a giant pot of Weldtite bearings for next to nothing, if I renew them once a year, maybe, with fresh grease, I'm figuring it'll last forever.

Given that as a maintenance schedule, will the cups or cones ever wear much?

OR, is it actually better to use softer bearings, so that they wear 'sacrificially' and save the races?

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 20 Sep 2018, 12:49pm

'VP' is a good sign that the headset is made by, er, VP.

http://www.vpcomponents.com/product_categories/headsets/

although it may be sold with cane creek branding.

As to which parts wear first, it depends how hard the parts are. Weldtite balls will work fine but if the headset is in good condition and you want the headset to last as long as possible I would suggest that you use better quality balls than that.

Unless the balls are damaged, corroded or worn there is pretty much no point in replacing them. Since ball bearings are easy to make very hard and reasonably accurately and ballraces that are similarly hard and accurately made are rather more expensive, it is a pretty fair guess that if the balls are damaged corroded or worn then the ballraces will be too, esp in an inexpensive headset.

To repair a worn/damaged headset, weldtite balls are a good choice; new balls of almost kind will be an improvement and the size variations in the balls make less difference in a headset that already has worn/damaged raceways. But if the raceways are not already damaged, and you wish to preserve them as long as possible, more accurately made balls are going to do a better job. Loose balls will increase the load bearing capacity of the headset.

The main things to remember are

1) adjustment; neither loose nor tight. Minimal preload, consistent with it not rattling around in use, is about right
2) correct lubrication; a grease with corrosion inhibitors and solid lubricants will work best.
3) If there are seals, the seals will only work if they are kept wetted with lubricant.
4) keep the water out!

You don't need to spend a lot of money to get a headset that, given reasonable care, ought to outlast the rest of the bike. And even if you fit weldtite balls the headset you have might go ten years or more with a little TLC.

BTW there is a dodge I have used with some headsets, when I have been short of good quality balls. Reckoning that the balls in the clips are better than the ones in my weldtite pot, I have used the original balls (extracted from the clips) to fully populate the lower race, and have used weldtite balls for the (less loaded) upper race. With (say) a tange headset, this is a good scheme. However with a cheap headset, you don't know for sure that the original balls are in fact any better than the weldtite ones.

cheers

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 12:59pm

Brucey wrote:'VP' is a good sign that the headset is made by, er, VP.

http://www.vpcomponents.com/product_categories/headsets/

although it may be sold with cane creek branding.

As to which parts wear first, it depends how hard the parts are. Weldtite balls will work fine but if the headset is in good condition and you want the headset to last as long as possible I would suggest that you use better quality balls than that.

Unless the balls are damaged, corroded or worn there is pretty much no point in replacing them. Since ball bearings are easy to make very hard and reasonably accurately and ballraces that are similarly hard and accurately made are rather more expensive, it is a pretty fair guess that if the balls are damaged corroded or worn then the ballraces will be too, esp in an inexpensive headset.

To repair a worn/damaged headset, weldtite balls are a good choice; new balls of almost kind will be an improvement and the size variations in the balls make less difference in a headset that already has worn/damaged raceways. But if the raceways are not already damaged, and you wish to preserve them as long as possible, more accurately made balls are going to do a better job. Loose balls will increase the load bearing capacity of the headset.

The main things to remember are

1) adjustment; neither loose nor tight. Minimal preload, consistent with it not rattling around in use, is about right
2) correct lubrication; a grease with corrosion inhibitors and solid lubricants will work best.
3) If there are seals, the seals will only work if they are kept wetted with lubricant.
4) keep the water out!

You don't need to spend a lot of money to get a headset that, given reasonable care, ought to outlast the rest of the bike. And even if you fit weldtite balls the headset you have might go ten years or more with a little TLC.

BTW there is a dodge I have used with some headsets, when I have been short of good quality balls. Reckoning that the balls in the clips are better than the ones in my weldtite pot, I have used the original balls (extracted from the clips) to fully populate the lower race, and have used weldtite balls for the (less loaded) upper race. With (say) a tange headset, this is a good scheme. However with a cheap headset, you don't know for sure that the original balls are in fact any better than the weldtite ones.

cheers

Thanks. For some reason I thought Cane Creek and VP were the same. Anyways, yes, searched the VP site to death. Can't find any details about VP-A51A. I assume it's one they supply to builders. My other Ridgeback has the same headset on. But I'm guessing at 5/16 inch bearing size.

If Weldtite are a bit average, who makes good ones?

For the amount and type of cycling I'm doing, even once a year may be too much. Yes, when I built it I packed as much grease as I could in the bearings, and around them, for instance on the outside underneath the lower one, above the outside of the top one. Anywhere I possibly could to stop water getting in. Then wiped the the excess off.

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 1:12pm

Oh, and which grease would you reccomend? I used the blue stuff that Spa sold me for general assembly. It seems pretty sticky. Presumably for a headset low friction isn't need. Waterproof and not-going-anywhere-in-a-hurry is the thing?

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 20 Sep 2018, 1:36pm

as I mentioned above something with a high solids content and lots of corrosion inhibitors is best for headsets. There are lots like this. If you buy something that is good for CV joints but isn't good for wheel bearings, this will almost certainly be pretty good stuff for a headset. In most car spares shops the MoS2 greases are 'weak tea'; (i.e. only just good enough for CV joints and will therefore do wheel bearings too,) but they may sell proper stuff too.

If you insist on using something from the bike shop then Finish Line Teflon grease is pretty good but it doesn't resist corrosion as well as some of the greases you will find elsewhere. I have not tried the other FL grease with hexagonal boron nitride in it; that may be OK too.

cheers

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 1:46pm

For instance ?:

https://www.commaoil.com/commercial-vehicles/products/view/212

Any bearings you'd recommend?

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 20 Sep 2018, 1:58pm

UNS spec balls to whatever grade you can afford, eg from simply bearings.

That grease is OK; IIRC in the application notes (on the container, not on their bloomin' website) it specifies 'not for use in wheel bearings' which makes me think it isn't weak tea.

cheers

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 2:56pm

Brucey wrote:UNS spec balls to whatever grade you can afford, eg from simply bearings.

That grease is OK; IIRC in the application notes (on the container, not on their bloomin' website) it specifies 'not for use in wheel bearings' which makes me think it isn't weak tea.

cheers

Many thanks. Yes, SimplyBearings comes up a lot. Just have to decide between chrome steel or stainless. Stainless is a little softer, but stainless. Then again, with the correct grease, minimal maintenance and not leaving it in the rain all winter, corrosion shouldn't be too much of a concern.

A tub of that CV joint grease plus a pot of 500 bearings basically adds up to about £30, and is enough for a complete renewal every year, so 10 years worth of headsets. And I'm willing to bet that would be complete overkill. Mind you, I'm seriously considering the inner tube over the headset method, in which case it would last even longer. But my attitude, for instance in house DIY, has always been 'think like a Roman' - i.e. make it last a thousand years. In a previous life I was a site engineer in civil (hah!) engineering. Where we really did have to consider harsh conditions and longevity.

I'll not use tea, weak, strong or any type.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 20 Sep 2018, 3:29pm

just be sure that water doesn't get in, unseen, from the top. This is surprisingly common in a-head type arrangements, and can destroy the bearings in fairly short order.

cheers

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 20 Sep 2018, 3:35pm

Brucey wrote:just be sure that water doesn't get in, unseen, from the top. This is surprisingly common in a-head type arrangements, and can destroy the bearings in fairly short order.

cheers

Yes. I blathered (technical term) lots of grease on the top outside of the upper race/stem spacer junction. Then wiped off excess that could get onto clothes. That's an area that could benefit from the inner tube treatment. And with careful trimming, on black spacers/stem, might not look too godawful. Or is that not where you think it gets in? Past the top cap? between the stem and spacers? Good thing about having the ugly uncut steerer I've got, I could actually completely seal that with something.

Or maybe just not go out in the rain. Which I don't anyway, a lot.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 20 Sep 2018, 3:59pm

IME quite a lot of water gets in around the handlebar clamp, runs down the inside of the stem, then migrates (unseen) down the steerer where it wreaks merry hell with everything. Most A-head bikes that see the weather have a (usually rusty) puddle living inside the stem; it really is a pretty pathetic arrangement.....

cheers

MikeDee · Post by **MikeDee** » 21 Sep 2018, 1:23am

Brucey wrote:IME quite a lot of water gets in around the handlebar clamp, runs down the inside of the stem, then migrates (unseen) down the steerer where it wreaks merry hell with everything. Most A-head bikes that see the weather have a (usually rusty) puddle living inside the stem; it really is a pretty pathetic arrangement.....

cheers

Should be able to seal that up, wouldn't you think? I see an O-ring in the headset dust cover in this photo:

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » 21 Sep 2018, 2:34am

tricky; in the clamp there needs to be metal to metal contact to hold the bars properly so the 'seal' would have to have holes in it. There is also often a tiny amount of movement in the clamp when the handlebars flex. These two things may mean that a dose of sealant around the clamp as the bars are installed may not be a permanent solution. If the bore of the stem is plugged instead this may work better but there will still be a puddle sat against the blockage; in time (eg with frost damage) this may also leak.

cheers

Sweep · Post by **Sweep** » 21 Sep 2018, 3:47am

Brucey wrote:as I mentioned above something with a high solids content and lots of corrosion inhibitors is best for headsets. There are lots like this. If you buy something that is good for CV joints but isn't good for wheel bearings, this will almost certainly be pretty good stuff for a headset. In most car spares shops the MoS2 greases are 'weak tea'; (i.e. only just good enough for CV joints and will therefore do wheel bearings too,) but they may sell proper stuff too.

If you insist on using something from the bike shop then Finish Line Teflon grease is pretty good but it doesn't resist corrosion as well as some of the greases you will find elsewhere. I have not tried the other FL grease with hexagonal boron nitride in it; that may be OK too.

cheers

This perhaps brucey?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/392118324274 ... 2118324274

bought a tub recently for heavier applications and as anti seize.

Definitely seems heavier than Weldtite's normal red grease - the slight pong on opening the tub may or not be reassuring - kind of reminded me of wandering into garage workshops as a kid.

Was wondering whether to use it in my Ridgeback expedition headset instead of finish line teflon.

mikeymo · Post by **mikeymo** » 21 Sep 2018, 8:46am

MikeDee wrote:
Brucey wrote:IME quite a lot of water gets in around the handlebar clamp, runs down the inside of the stem, then migrates (unseen) down the steerer where it wreaks merry hell with everything. Most A-head bikes that see the weather have a (usually rusty) puddle living inside the stem; it really is a pretty pathetic arrangement.....

cheers

Should be able to seal that up, wouldn't you think? I see an O-ring in the headset dust cover in this photo:

Actually I think you may be talking about two different things. That's not going to stop water getting in at the handlebar clamp is it? Though it may stop it running down the outside of the steerer tube. Don't know where else it would go. If that O ring in the dust cover, or in my case the top race of the bearing is actually effective, then what is needed is spacers with gaps, some sort of upside down castellation thing, so that any water that gets in, anywhere, and runs down the OUTSIDE of the steerer tube, can escape before it gets into the bearings, either top or bottom. Oh, and mudguards, obviously.

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