Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

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PH
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Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby PH » 9 Jan 2020, 2:20pm

bgnukem wrote:As usual (and very typical of Shimano, I have to say) everything is made to be disposable and of limited life:

The over-tightened, under-greased Shimano dynohub bearings, the inaccessible and tiny cartridge bearings in the SP hub, the inability to open up a SON hub.

The SON hub is designed to be serviceable, just not by the consumer.
I've had both of mine serviced, one after 12 years the other 14, I expect them to outlive me.
I also have a Shimano hub and a SP, they all work fine, but there's something about the SON that transcends the practical, it is a thing of beauty and in the polished silver a therapeutic pleasure to shine it up like new.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby Brucey » 9 Jan 2020, 6:29pm

the warranty on the SON is good, but the services in most hubs -between wheelbuilding faff, actual cost, posting faff, and 'no wheel while it is gone' faff- 'cost' plenty. In fact you can often comfortably buy another hub generator for that amount.

I don't think shimano hubs are designed to be throwaway items, but some folk treat them thusly and they don't seem appreciably worse off (in fact they are better off I would say) than if they had a more expensive hub that has to be sent away for repair.

I could think of many ways hub generators could be improved but the brutal fact is that in the cut-throat marketplace in which they operate, shimano couldn't afford to spend an extra £5 on OEM hubs and an extra £10 on the cost of 'enthusiast' hubs would hurt sales too; not everyone would appreciate the benefits of such design changes. Same goes for SP hubs; they could specify corrosion resistant bearings, better grease or something but it'd cost.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bgnukem
Posts: 264
Joined: 20 Dec 2010, 5:21pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby bgnukem » 9 Jan 2020, 7:18pm

What I don't understand is, in the late '80s and '90s, the higher-end Shimano stuff like 105/Ultegra or Deore LX/XT was actually more expensive than it is now, in real terms at least (sometimes in actual terms as well - XT hubs cost more 25 years ago than they do now), and to my mind was much higher quality, yet the higher prices didn't seem to stop Shimano selling them like hot cakes and successfully growing their business back then, so why the race to the bottom with lower quality stuff outsourced to various (cheaper) countries of manufacture other than Japan?

I guess this is just the way the world works these days, but I'm not massively interested in buying cheap cr@p then throwing it away shortly afterwards.....

Maybe I'm just not supposed to ride my bikes very far, like most Brits??

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby Brucey » 9 Jan 2020, 8:11pm

in real terms a lot of 'consumer durables' are cheaper now than they were years ago. Arguably the emphasis is perhaps on 'consuming' more of them, because they are less 'durable', but that is the way the world works in a market economy. Fortunately there is room within this marketplace for other brands which offer different product values, at a price.

FWIW I think that shimano have dropped a few clangers for sure (they always have done) but by and large what they make now is of pretty good quality; the emphasis may be different (more 'performance per £', sometimes at the expense of durability) but things can't stay the same in this crazy world of ours. The bottom line is that you can still build a pretty good touring bike using mostly shimano parts and for that I'm pretty grateful.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

dim
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Joined: 12 May 2019, 5:59pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby dim » 9 Jan 2020, 8:50pm

bottom line is that you need to match your wheels with your bike

if your bike is only worth £300-£400 then buy a cheaper dynamo hub .... if your bike is worth £2K+ then get the SON28

alexnharvey
Posts: 945
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby alexnharvey » 9 Jan 2020, 9:24pm

Don't be a velominatus sheep.

https://www.velominati.com/

For nearly a year I rode a bike with one black rim and one silver (front dynamo) one! Still got to work in the morning.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby Brucey » 9 Jan 2020, 9:28pm

dim wrote:bottom line is that you need to match your wheels with your bike

if your bike is only worth £300-£400 then buy a cheaper dynamo hub .... if your bike is worth £2K+ then get the SON28


I don't agree with that. You should aim to match your wheels to your needs not your wallet. Would it be 'wrong' to buy a used SON because it only cost half the money....? Of course not. Do I use some cheap parts on bikes that are 'worth' thousands? Or expensive parts on less valuable machines? Of course I do. Quality and serviceability are not just -or maybe not even- based on cost alone.

As a matter of principle I think that -for my usual purposes certainly- adjustable cup and cone bearings make for intrinsically better hubs, pedals, etc.

It is interesting to look at some component designs; for example the much vaunted Maxicar hubs had many of the characteristics of cartridge bearing hubs, yet (at no little cost) the bearings were made adjustable. The best of both worlds, or the worst? To this day I'm not really sure.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PH
Posts: 8400
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
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Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby PH » 9 Jan 2020, 9:34pm

Brucey wrote:Same goes for SP hubs; they could specify corrosion resistant bearings, better grease or something but it'd cost.
cheers

Isn't that what they did when they made for others? Exposure and Supernova, though I note the latter no longer list them. I hope it wasn't just re-branding, they were twice the price.

SA_SA_SA
Posts: 1848
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby SA_SA_SA » 9 Jan 2020, 10:31pm

But running the wires under the cone in current shimano hubs surely rather undermines the serviceability of the cup and cone bearings rather a lot:
if you go to the trouble of using cup and cone bearings in a generator hub it seems a bit strange to compromise that serviceability by using a design that runs easily damaged cables underneath the LH cone, thus leading to people being nervous of greasing/adjusting them....:
thus perhaps I am wrong to presume an otherwise similar design but with cartridge bearings would be cheaper to manufacturer and perhaps Shimano don't care about serviceability but just find cup and cone cheaper to manufacture ?
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Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby Brucey » 9 Jan 2020, 10:42pm

shimano do use cartridge bearings, but not usually in things like hubs or pedals. I suspect that to achieve the same load rating in the bearing, the cartridge bearings in hubs would have to be far bigger and heavier (and more expensive) than those which are used by many other manufacturers.

Note that most shimano products were originally designed to be disassembled and maintained, but as time has gone on, they have not found this approach to be commercially viable for them. For example freehub bodies were originally designed to be maintained and shimano produced tools to carry out this work. However at some point they withdrew the tool from sale and just carried on selling whole freehub bodies as spare parts instead. It is the same deal with some of their IGHs, only in this case they sell tools for stripping the axle assy, but don't sell the separate parts that go inside the axle assy; some change of mind there I suspect.

If shimano wanted to I think they could make hub generators readily serviceable. I'd pay £10 more for one such but maybe the rest of the world wouldn't.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SA_SA_SA
Posts: 1848
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby SA_SA_SA » 9 Jan 2020, 10:49pm

Brucey wrote:shimano do use cartridge bearings, but not usually in things like hubs or pedals. I suspect that to achieve the same load rating in the bearing, the cartridge bearings in hubs would have to be far bigger and heavier (and more expensive) than those which are used by many other manufacturers. ...
Does that mean the cartridge bearings in SP or current Sturmey hubs are overloaded?
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mig
Posts: 2153
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby mig » 9 Jan 2020, 10:56pm

Brucey wrote:the warranty on the SON is good, but the services in most hubs -between wheelbuilding faff, actual cost, posting faff, and 'no wheel while it is gone' faff- 'cost' plenty. In fact you can often comfortably buy another hub generator for that amount.

I don't think shimano hubs are designed to be throwaway items, but some folk treat them thusly and they don't seem appreciably worse off (in fact they are better off I would say) than if they had a more expensive hub that has to be sent away for repair.

I could think of many ways hub generators could be improved but the brutal fact is that in the cut-throat marketplace in which they operate, shimano couldn't afford to spend an extra £5 on OEM hubs and an extra £10 on the cost of 'enthusiast' hubs would hurt sales too; not everyone would appreciate the benefits of such design changes. Same goes for SP hubs; they could specify corrosion resistant bearings, better grease or something but it'd cost.

cheers


cost because of the additional layout? or because they'd sell fewer over time by increasing durability?

Brucey
Posts: 37277
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby Brucey » 10 Jan 2020, 2:38am

SA_SA_SA wrote: Does that mean the cartridge bearings in SP or current Sturmey hubs are overloaded?


provided they are installed properly, they probably aren't badly overloaded on rim brake front hubs given moderate use. Sadly in many hubs fitted with cartridge bearings the preload is not well controlled. On many disc brake hubs and rear hubs, the bearings have very little leeway against overloading and have poorly controlled preload too. Conventional deep groove cartridge bearings are not intended to take substantial side loads either, which means that aggressive riding can cause the bearings to suffer prematurely. I've had cartridge bearing disc brake hubs where the bearing has failed to laterally locate the hub well enough and there has been bad brake rub when riding out of the saddle, not present with brand new bearings or bearings with more sensible contact angles.

mig wrote:
cost because of the additional layout? or because they'd sell fewer over time by increasing durability?


more the former than the latter, I'd have said.

AFAICT SP hubs (unlike SON) have no clever breathing (pressure compensation) feature so may try and 'breathe' (air and water) through the bearings. Not a recipe for longevity in our lovely climate.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SA_SA_SA
Posts: 1848
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby SA_SA_SA » 10 Jan 2020, 5:37pm

Quickly looking at retail prices for big shielded(approx 7X mm) cartridge bearings, they seem double in price compared to the usual size, so surely not too much extra cost over smaller ones, and surely a cup and cone hub is more expensive to produce (more labour intensive?) so a could a shimano style hub with large bearing(s) * not be only a very modest cost more to manufacture? Couldn't marketing persons use the larger bearing as a selling feature?

*and hopefully bearing fitting/removal would not affect wiring as mentioned above by Brucey and in other threads.
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 10 Jan 2020, 8:22pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lescargo
Posts: 173
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 11:51pm
Location: Tyneside

Re: Hub Dynamo for winter commute.

Postby lescargo » 10 Jan 2020, 7:59pm

I presume you wont do this in next couple of weeks???
Could be well worth your while to see what's available second hand?
First try advert here on CTC "Wanted" board.
Then similar ad. in "ARRIVEE"; the AUDAX mag. or other similar sites YACF.

20 years ago best lighting options for *PBP or *LEL were those Austrian
Dynohubs but with the leap forward with LEDs these are now rarely seen.

I know of one D/hub system that went in the skip when rider moving house!
Surely there are some complete systems gathering dust cos the now, older
riders don't do overnight rides anymore.

You have nothing to lose.

*I envied them but wouldn't justify the cost but I really should have done.