Touring Wheels Advice

[Brucey]

I meant twice as many ratchets as the LX freehub.
If I am wrong on the number it is still the case that it is a much smoother freehub with a much better take up of the drive.

Like I said, 16 clicks is standard for (steel axle) shimano freehubs, including LX models. I recently built a wheelset around a new set of LX hubs and TBH the bearings in the freehub and the main hub were very smooth indeed. There were however three small issues;

1) the LX hubs were very slightly eccentric, i.e. the shells were not concentric with the bearings quite. This was quite noticeable in the wheelbuilding, rather less so when the wheels were finished. I went through the stock in an LBS and they were all the same. Might be a batch thing.

2) the dustcaps on the current LX rim brake hubs (which are the same design as shared with several other shimano hubs) have a small crevice between the dustcap and the hubshell. If grit gets in this gap it makes a terrible noise, (out of all proportion with the damage, fortunately).

3) the freehub bearings had a tiny bit of free play in them. This isn't unusual and can happen with any new shimano freehub, almost regardless of cost it seems. I adjusted the freehub body and it was then 'perfect' i.e. better than any that come out of the factory. The LH seal, springs and pawls inside are identical to other shimano models.

Overall there isn't a big difference in bearing/freehub quality between current LX (eg FH-T660/T670) and XT(M756) models that I can see.

BTW I just checked a FH-M756 and that had sixteen clicks as well, so it is the same as LX or FH-M756A in that respect.

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

I say that despite the fact that I managed to snap the freehub on one of my LX hubs within 5,000 miles.

I am interested, you got more details?

[IanDG]

I'm using Deore hubs with Exal SP19 built by Spa Cycles. I used to use Sputnik rims but changed because of presence of the brake wear indicator line.

[meic]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78935&hilit=freehub

I forgot that I also managed to tear the flange on it at a later date. That particular wheel was cursed.

[Sweep]

I'm using Deore hubs with Exal SP19 built by Spa Cycles. I used to use Sputnik rims but changed because of availability of the brake wear line.

Can I ask how the Exal SP19s compare to the Sputniks?

Amount of metal/brake rim depth provided?

Sheer brute strength?

How they ride?

[IanDG]

I'm using Deore hubs with Exal SP19 built by Spa Cycles. I used to use Sputnik rims but changed because of availability of the brake wear line.

Can I ask how the Exal SP19s compare to the Sputniks?

Amount of metal/brake rim depth provided?

Sheer brute strength?

How they ride?

I've found them to be as good as the Sputniks. At the time I chose the rims Spa commented they were both good rims the brake wear line being the only difference.

I'm using them on a Cross-Check riding trails and gravel and they've stood up well so far.

[meic]

Overall there isn't a big difference in bearing/freehub quality between current LX (eg FH-T660/T670) and XT(M756) models that I can see.

BTW I just checked a FH-M756 and that had sixteen clicks as well, so it is the same as LX or FH-M756A in that respect.

I have been out and checked too, thinking possibly same number of pawls but smaller ratchet steps.
Both are sixteen clicks per revolution.

I am still very enamoured of the XT hub as when I bought it, in a way that I wasnt with the LX hubs.
Not just because I paid twice as much for it.
The XT hub is just so quiet in operation, the take up of the drive is always instant.

I dont suggest there are any other benefits from the XT than these rather subjective aesthetic ones but I still appreciate them. Even though I have had two failures from LX hubs, I put that down to bad luck and would recommend them as a better option to someone who didnt want to spend extra money on finesse.

[MikeDee]

This:
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s176p11 ... Sputnik-XT

+1

At 100kg I've used a Sputnik rear wheel from Spa Cycles for fully loaded touring. No issues at all over thousands of miles.[/quote]


+2

Spa/Sputnik 36 spokes/Deore hub.....1000s of trouble free miles.[/quote]

What's up with the "spoke heads punched into the hubs?"

[Brucey]

some wheelbuilders use a punch to seat the spoke heads into the hubs fully. If the spokes are made to fit well and given a really thorough stress-relief treatment, this may not be necessary. However if the spoke head seats itself into the flange in use, the spoke both goes slack and sees higher stress in the elbow, so the wheel is less durable as a result.

cheers

[531colin]

A joiner uses a nail punch (set) to set the head of the nail below the surface of the wood.
This wheelbuilder uses a punch (modified from a joiner's nail set) to set the spoke head flat (or at least parallel) to the surface of the hub flange.
With the spokes at or near final tension, I punch the spoke heads then stress-relieve the spokes; its then half to one turn to get back up to tension.
Stress-relieving, if done with enough force to be effective, forms the characteristic dent made in the hub flange by a spoke....you don't have to ride the wheel to form that dent. Its not clear to me that punching the spoke head alters the hub flange in any way, but I would prefer the spoke heads to be fully settled in the flange while the wheel is in my hands in the workshop, otherwise when the wheel is ridden the spokes can settle and the wheel will slacken, and may go out of true.
Use minimal force when setting the spoke heads....its a tap with a toffee-hammer, not a crack from a joiner's one pound hammer.

[MikeDee]

some wheelbuilders use a punch to seat the spoke heads into the hubs fully. If the spokes are made to fit well and given a really thorough stress-relief treatment, this may not be necessary. However if the spoke head seats itself into the flange in use, the spoke both goes slack and sees higher stress in the elbow, so the wheel is less durable as a result.

cheers

Spokes are supposed to lie flat against the hub flange for long fatigue life. Seems to me that this practice runs counter to that by pushing the spoke away from the flange. Brandt and Sheldon Brown don't mention this; I don't have the Musson book so don't know what he says. If the spoke heads are sticking out from the hub flange, you should be using spoke washers, I would think.

[531colin]

………. If the spoke heads are sticking out from the hub flange, you should be using spoke washers, I would think.

I don't think anybody will disagree with that.

[Brucey]

some wheelbuilders use a punch to seat the spoke heads into the hubs fully. If the spokes are made to fit well and given a really thorough stress-relief treatment, this may not be necessary. However if the spoke head seats itself into the flange in use, the spoke both goes slack and sees higher stress in the elbow, so the wheel is less durable as a result.

cheers

Spokes are supposed to lie flat against the hub flange for long fatigue life. Seems to me that this practice runs counter to that by pushing the spoke away from the flange. Brandt and Sheldon Brown don't mention this; I don't have the Musson book so don't know what he says. If the spoke heads are sticking out from the hub flange, you should be using spoke washers, I would think.

I agree. However small gaps (on 'inside spokes') are almost inevitable, and the defence against spoke breakage arising is (as well as to build as per shimano's recommendations (which I will clarify if required), not as Musson and others suggest) to stress-relieve the wheel. If this is done with enough vigour then the head settles in the flange, the bends can be reformed (so that the gap is reduced) and in any event stress-relief with the spoke in its final position is likely to be more effective than if the spoke moves (settles) later. In some cases punching the heads avoids later settling and may reduce the amount of stress-relief that is required.

If the spoke heads settle (after building) then the wheel will lose tension. However as well as being retensioned, really the wheel ought to be stress-relieved again; the stresses around the elbow bend will have changed and this is extremely unlikely to be a good thing.

FWIW I prefer to build with washers even if it makes the outside spokes seem difficult to fit; if they are not then the inside spokes don't fit as well as they can do otherwise. I also think that spoke washers almost completely avoid later settling of the spoke heads. By contrast some spoke heads (without washers) will not only settle in service unless you punch the heads, but may actually damage the hub flanges so that flange breakage is made more likely.

If you get a chance, I suggest that anyone who is interested examines the underside of spoke heads carefully. They are almost invariably made using a die that closes along a line and there is very often a resultant flash line (or small step) either side of the head. If such a spoke is fitted to the hub without a washer then the flash can gouge two lines in the hub; these are potential points of settlement and of hub crack initiation.

cheers

[pwa]

Overall there isn't a big difference in bearing/freehub quality between current LX (eg FH-T660/T670) and XT(M756) models that I can see.

BTW I just checked a FH-M756 and that had sixteen clicks as well, so it is the same as LX or FH-M756A in that respect.

I have been out and checked too, thinking possibly same number of pawls but smaller ratchet steps.
Both are sixteen clicks per revolution.

I am still very enamoured of the XT hub as when I bought it, in a way that I wasnt with the LX hubs.
Not just because I paid twice as much for it.
The XT hub is just so quiet in operation, the take up of the drive is always instant.

I dont suggest there are any other benefits from the XT than these rather subjective aesthetic ones but I still appreciate them. Even though I have had two failures from LX hubs, I put that down to bad luck and would recommend them as a better option to someone who didnt want to spend extra money on finesse.

Apologies for thread resurrection, but this afternoon I spent a pleasant hour outside in the sunshine doing a few long overdue bike maintenance jobs including dismantling, cleaning, regreasing and reassembling an XT rear hub, with alloy axle. And in spite of the flak this design gets I have to say that apart from a trace of pitting on one cone it was in good order. It has been used mainly for loaded commuting and some touring, with a lot of winter use on lanes, and it has stood up as well as any other hub I've used. Over several years and lots of miles. Freehub still good with minimal play. It is on its second rim.

[MikeDee]

The Wheelfanatyk website (https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/side- ... -building/) says to do the following to set the spoke line at the hub:

"Set angles with steel rods (thick Philips screwdriver blades) or wood (retired hammer handles). If you do this aggressively once when the wheel is 80% tensioned, you’ll also be accomplishing the tension increase of squeezing. Your own tests will confirm."



Any comments on this practice?

The wheel shown in the photo does not have interlaced spokes. Is this a good practice as well? From reading Brandt's book, interlacing is good.