Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

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Garry Booth
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Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Garry Booth » 3 Oct 2018, 6:09pm

I usually ride Schwalbe Lugano tyres and find them fine to fit. I just bought a Lugano Endurance (for reasons I won't go into) and find it incredibly tight to fit without nipping the tube. Have I got a dud or has anyone else had a similar problem with this model?

gxaustin
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby gxaustin » 3 Oct 2018, 8:17pm

You can get a gadget to pull tyres onto the rim.

Brucey
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Brucey » 3 Oct 2018, 9:16pm

'active line' tyres are usually not a particularly tight fit. Bearing in mind that other Schwalbe tyres fit onto that rim OK, the fault has to be with this particular tyre.

cheers
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531colin
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby 531colin » 3 Oct 2018, 9:28pm

Brucey wrote:'active line' tyres are usually not a particularly tight fit. Bearing in mind that other Schwalbe tyres fit onto that rim OK, the fault has to be with this particular tyre....

Tyres are produced by machine, not by hand......so thats a whole production run, not just one tyre?
I have no idea how its done....
How is the bead diameter fixed during manufacture?
I think Schwalbe wire bead tyres have several wraps of wire, only "fixed" by the rubber/fabric components of the bead.
Garry Booth wrote:I usually ride Schwalbe Lugano tyres and find them fine to fit. I just bought a Lugano Endurance (for reasons I won't go into) and find it incredibly tight to fit without nipping the tube. Have I got a dud or has anyone else had a similar problem with this model?

Have we got a new rim tape with the new tyre?
How is the tube "nipped"? If you get the tube between the bead and the rim, the tyre will be tight.

Brucey
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Brucey » 3 Oct 2018, 9:35pm

my understanding is that the parts of tyres are still introduced into the mould by hand, (hence all the tyre manufacturers moving to low wage economies in recent years). Whether this gives scope for changing the fit of the tyre or not (the wire beads are made in exactly the way you describe) I'm not sure.

cheers
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mig
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby mig » 3 Oct 2018, 9:41pm

they're both going on to the same wheel/rim presumably?

Garry Booth
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Garry Booth » 4 Oct 2018, 10:21am

It's a puzzle - same rim, same tape, same combo of speed lever and old fashioned levers I always use. I note that the tyre says made in Indonesia as opposed to Germany and while not doubting workmanship, maybe it's the new production line...

NetworkMan
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby NetworkMan » 4 Oct 2018, 12:17pm

Garry Booth wrote:It's a puzzle - same rim, same tape, same combo of speed lever and old fashioned levers I always use. I note that the tyre says made in Indonesia as opposed to Germany and while not doubting workmanship, maybe it's the new production line...

Just a few thoughts that may help.
IIRC I've never needed to use a tyre lever to fit any tyre to any rim. Are you repeatedly making sure that the tyre is fully down in the well all around as you progressively push the bead over? Also, I find it a good idea to finish at the valve since it's easier to keep the bead in the well without the valve being in the way. Some people use a toe strap or cable tie to prevent the bead popping off the rim in one place as they fit the tyre in another. Just remembered, keeping a very small amount of air in the tube can help prevent pinching but not too much since that can make it harder to keep the tyre beads in the rim well.
Last edited by NetworkMan on 4 Oct 2018, 12:23pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brucey
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2018, 12:22pm

a thought; is there a new inner tube which is slightly wider in relation to the tyre it is going inside? If so this can cause difficulties in fitting the tyre without trapping the inner tube, and indeed the tyre can seen unusually tight if the tube is obstructing the tyre beads in the rim well too.

cheers
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Boogaloo
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Boogaloo » 4 Oct 2018, 4:24pm

Are these 25mm or smaller? Also was the Lugano a folder whereas the Endurance is wire bead?

In my experience kevlar bead Luganos go on fairly easily.Certainly no need for levers. I've no experience of Endurance versions but they probably behave more like Marathons which can be a total pain to get on. I have mastered the Marathon technique now but it does take practice and good technique,

One thing I find helps is buying the tyre well before needing it and fitting it to a spare rim. No need for a tube so it's a bit easier. when stored this way the tyre takes the more rounded shape of a fitted tyre as opposed to the flatter shape they seem to leave the factory in. Works for me anyway.

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531colin
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby 531colin » 5 Oct 2018, 5:41pm

Garry Booth wrote:I usually ride Schwalbe Lugano tyres and find them fine to fit. I just bought a Lugano Endurance (for reasons I won't go into) and find it incredibly tight to fit without nipping the tube. Have I got a dud or has anyone else had a similar problem with this model?

Garry Booth wrote:It's a puzzle - same rim, same tape, same combo of speed lever and old fashioned levers I always use. I note that the tyre says made in Indonesia as opposed to Germany and while not doubting workmanship, maybe it's the new production line...

I fit tyres using the Mk1 fingers and thumbs*. This removes the possibility of nipping the tube with a lever, and makes it obvious if the tube has got between the tyre bead and the rim, because its suddenly difficult to get the tyre on.
Are you nipping the tube with a lever or between the tyre bead and the rim? I don't know what a "speed lever" is.

* Remove tyre completely. Put a bit of air in the tube. Fit tube into tyre, lining up valve and tyre branding. If you get pleats in the tube, let some air out. Push the valve through the hole in the rim, and fit the first bead. Fit the second bead, making sure the bead is right down into the well of the rim, and working the slack round to the last bit of bead to be fitted. With a stiff tyre, you might need zip ties, pedal straps, or just string to hold the bead down in the rim well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XUFVrl0UT4

Brucey
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Brucey » 5 Oct 2018, 8:30pm

so a list of reasons why the tyre is tight includes;

- poor fitting technique
- tube slightly too wide/heavy for the tyre in question
- rim oversized at bead seat diameter (BSD)
- rim well undersized (bad rim design)
- rim tape too thick or wrong sort (eg covering the bead seat diameter when it shouldn't be covered)
- tyre too small (by batch or design)

most likely it is a combination of the above. Often an oversized rim has been in use with slightly oversize tyres before, and suddenly you find that 'you can't buy tyres that fit your rims' any more. In theory all tyres will have to be made differently (ostensibly 'better') in the future, because tubeless ready rims and tyres impose new constraints on tyre geometry. I have seen and heard of perfectly good tyres (that work fine on normal rims) simply blowing off tubeless rims even when a tube is used. Until all this settles down my advice is to buy 'known good' rims and tyres from established manufacturers.

If you want to check the BSD then measure the rim lip height (h) above the BSD accurately (using digital verniers) and then measure the rollout of the rim accurately, i.e. to give the circumference (C).

Then (with C and h in mm)

[C - (2 x Pi x h)]/Pi = BSD

if the BSD is over 622mm (for a 700C rim) then very many tyres will be a tight fit.

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531colin
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby 531colin » 6 Oct 2018, 12:02pm

Brucey wrote:………..
- rim well undersized (bad rim design)..........

Or even just an old/old fashioned/cheap to make rim design?
It seems to me that things have changed.
In the fifties and sixties I don't think I could have got as much as 50psi into a tyre using a hand pump with a wibbly wobbly rubber tube connector, with fibre washer "seals" at each end, and rim extrusions were limited to single wall, and you didn't have a bead hook.
Now everybody expects tyres to take 100psi (cold) even with a bead hook the tyre has to be a tighter fit than it used to be.
I think the "average" tyre is tighter now than it was say 10 years ago (unless its just my hands getting more arthritic!) and you need a modern rim design with a deep well to compensate.

Brucey
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Brucey » 6 Oct 2018, 12:20pm

531colin wrote: In the fifties and sixties I don't think I could have got as much as 50psi into a tyre using a hand pump with a wibbly wobbly rubber tube connector, with fibre washer "seals" at each end, and rim extrusions were limited to single wall, and you didn't have a bead hook....


argh, stop, I'm having flashbacks! I only started cycling in the 1970s and (even as a callow youth) I couldn't believe that folk put up with that rubbish TBH.

As soon as I could I bought a Silca frame fit pump and even though it didn't have a check valve in it (which could turn it into a kind of compressed air-powered mortar.... :shock: ) it was brilliant by comparison. Likewise after a couple of fairly miserable years riding everywhere on tubs or dodgy 27x1-1/4" tyres on non hook bead rims I started to use HPs on hook bead rims for most of my riding and I was happier even though the tyres were usually Michelin elans which basically fell apart at the slightest excuse.

Now everybody expects tyres to take 100psi (cold) even with a bead hook the tyre has to be a tighter fit than it used to be.
I think the "average" tyre is tighter now than it was say 10 years ago (unless its just my hands getting more arthritic!) and you need a modern rim design with a deep well to compensate.


There have always been tight tyres and tight rims, but it seems to me that finding ones that are not like this is indeed becoming more difficult. I think part of the problem is that folk don't complain to 'the manufacturers' enough and anyway 'the manufacturers' may be half a world (and several months shipping) away from where the manufacturing is actually done. The last thing they want to do is acknowledge that the previous boatful of stuff was no good, because this means there is probably another on the way and the one after that will probably appear before they can make changes too....

cheers
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Garry Booth
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Re: Schwalbe Lugano Endurance - too tight

Postby Garry Booth » 15 Oct 2018, 5:11pm

Thanks for all the input everyone. I eventually got the Endurance onto a different wheel, for comparison. It was still tight as a DA but went on after a great deal of cursing. Pumped it up to 90 which revealed a distorted bead! So on the basis it is a bad 'un I took it back to LBS and swapped it for a regular Lugano which went on sweet as a nut.